Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc. Maykop

[markod]

The problem is that EHG needs WHG and CHG needs EHG. So here i dont know what i'm talking about, but exactly how could WHG be in East Caspian? The EHG needed in CHG cannot be ANE itself, because it's already in Iran_Neo. Also, remember ourselves that Dzudzuana is not directly related with CHG, but is highly related with Anatolian and Levante Neolithic. It looks like the ancestor of CHG, but not CHG proper have to come from Eastern Europe and get BA ancestry South of the Caucasus at some point. We are probably talking here about something that old as Epigravettian in North Caucasus.

Most of this will probably be answered when the source of the East Eurasian ancestry seeping into West Eurasia in the timeframe between Dzudzuana and Huto/Karelia (as well as speculatively Villabrunna) is discovered.

 

[halfalp]

Most of this will probably be answered when the source of the East Eurasian ancestry seeping into West Eurasia in the timeframe between Dzudzuana and Huto/Karelia (as well as speculatively Villabrunna) is discovered.

My bet is that Cultures, Ancestral Components and Haplogroups gonna confuse together when more samples we gonna have. It looks like there were switch in lineages but continuity of ancestral components and culture in Paleolithic era. But with the datas we have actually, there is only 2 propositions: EHG and pre-CHG came both from Eastern Europe ( North Caucasus included ) while pre-CHG probably in the Bolling-Allerod migrated South to become proper-CHG. Or Pre-EHG and CHG came from Iran, at a time when Iran was actually mostly of ANE ancestry without Basal Eurasian, and that Pre-EHG became EHG in Eastern Europe ( through Caucasus or East Caspian ), while CHG mingle with BA later on.

 

[markod]

My bet is that Cultures, Ancestral Components and Haplogroups gonna confuse together when more samples we gonna have. It looks like there were switch in lineages but continuity of ancestral components and culture in Paleolithic era. But with the datas we have actually, there is only 2 propositions: EHG and pre-CHG came both from Eastern Europe ( North Caucasus included ) while pre-CHG probably in the Bolling-Allerod migrated South to become proper-CHG. Or Pre-EHG and CHG came from Iran, at a time when Iran was actually mostly of ANE ancestry without Basal Eurasian, and that Pre-EHG became EHG in Eastern Europe ( through Caucasus or East Caspian ), while CHG mingle with BA later on.

I think that for now there are any number of possibilities. It would probably be interesting to take a good look at where HGs tended to live during the LGM. I don't think that will tell us much about the genesis of the steppe tribes though. It would be better to look for their immediate ancestors and then work from there.

Before the Advent of population genomic a very common view among archaeologists used to be that the origin of the the Kurgan cultures lay in the cave settlements of the eastern Caspian like Dam Dam Chesme, Dzebel and others. I would love to see whether such a chronology could be supported with ancient DNA.

 

[halfalp]

I think that for now there are any number of possibilities. It would probably be interesting to take a good look at where HGs tended to live during the LGM. I don't think that will tell us much about the genesis of the steppe tribes though. It would be better to look for their immediate ancestors and then work from there.

Before the Advent of population genomic a very common view among archaeologists used to be that the origin of the the Kurgan cultures lay in the cave settlements of the eastern Caspian like Dam Dam Chesme, Dzebel and others. I would love to see whether such a chronology could be supported with ancient DNA.

Yes, but lithic material is a tricky one. It's like Solutrean, Swiderian and Clovis. I think you are talking about the Bullet-shaped core found in South Urals and East Caspian that FrankN were talking about right? So now, what is the probability that Solutrean and Swiderian peoples had the same autosomal component and y-dna haplogroups while they have clearly the same lithic culture origin?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yes, but lithic material is a tricky one. It's like Solutrean, Swiderian and Clovis. I think you are talking about the Bullet-shaped core found in South Urals and East Caspian that FrankN were talking about right? So now, what is the probability that Solutrean and Swiderian peoples had the same autosomal component and y-dna haplogroups while they have clearly the same lithic culture origin?

I wouldn’t write off the Solutrean hypothesis so easily, even if it wasn’t demic diffusion the lithic material really is quite similar. More and more, it’s looking like plenty of populations migrated into the Americas.

 

[halfalp]

I wouldn’t write off the Solutrean hypothesis so easily, even if it wasn’t demic diffusion the lithic material really is quite similar. More and more, it’s looking like plenty of populations migrated into the Americas.

I'm still convinced by the y-dna R ( maybe R1b ) and Solutrean culture link, but i'm not interested into the trans-atlantic Solutrean Hypothesis. In Europe, Solutrean and Swiderian have a strong lithic link, but do we know such link coming from Siberia? Like AG, didn't have the same lithic reductions. What is interesting is that the preceding culture of Swiderian was Ahrensburgian, wich is mostly Baltic Magdalenian. So were did that Solutrean-like Lithic culture came from?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I'm still convinced by the y-dna R ( maybe R1b ) and Solutrean culture link, but i'm not interested into the trans-atlantic Solutrean Hypothesis. In Europe, Solutrean and Swiderian have a strong lithic link, but do we know such link coming from Siberia? Like AG, didn't have the same lithic reductions. What is interesting is that the preceding culture of Swiderian was Ahrensburgian, wich is mostly Baltic Magdalenian. So were did that Solutrean-like Lithic culture came from?

i really doubt it would be Y DNA R considering it’s mostly M269.

 

[halfalp]

i really doubt it would be Y DNA R considering it’s mostly M269.

I mean R broadly. But M269 cannot be part of the Solutrean, it's a way older culture.

 

[Jack Johnson]

So what is the deal with Steppe Maykop? I keep seeing on Eurogenes all this West Siberian Neolithic talk, but what samples are they deriving this ancestral component from? I cannot find anything online about it. What is it exactly? How do they even differentiate the ANE in these samples? There is also the presence of EDAR in the Steppe Maykop, as well as in the Mesolithic Motala hunter gatherers of Sweden and in Karelia. Could we be looking at something connected to the spread of mtDNA C1 and Y-DNA R/Q during the Upper Paleolithic, or was this also a gene present in the earliest West Eurasians/Paleo-Europeans, but due to selection, it has been diluted to non-existence in most of Europe. Much of this can be solved if we simply had more ancient East Eurasian samples.

 

[halfalp]

So what is the deal with Steppe Maykop? I keep seeing on Eurogenes all this West Siberian Neolithic talk, but what samples are they deriving this ancestral component from? I cannot find anything online about it. What is it exactly? How do they even differentiate the ANE in these samples? There is also the presence of EDAR in the Steppe Maykop, as well as in the Mesolithic Motala hunter gatherers of Sweden and in Karelia. Could we be looking at something connected to the spread of mtDNA C1 and Y-DNA R/Q during the Upper Paleolithic, or was this also a gene present in the earliest West Eurasians/Paleo-Europeans, but due to selection, it has been diluted to non-existence in most of Europe. Much of this can be solved if we simply had more ancient East Eurasian samples.

I think this West Siberian Neolithic makes reference either to something Botai-like or with Baikal Neolithic, mainly liked with y-dna N1c and Q1a. But i'm not sure.

 

[markod]

So what is the deal with Steppe Maykop? I keep seeing on Eurogenes all this West Siberian Neolithic talk, but what samples are they deriving this ancestral component from? I cannot find anything online about it. What is it exactly? How do they even differentiate the ANE in these samples? There is also the presence of EDAR in the Steppe Maykop, as well as in the Mesolithic Motala hunter gatherers of Sweden and in Karelia. Could we be looking at something connected to the spread of mtDNA C1 and Y-DNA R/Q during the Upper Paleolithic, or was this also a gene present in the earliest West Eurasians/Paleo-Europeans, but due to selection, it has been diluted to non-existence in most of Europe. Much of this can be solved if we simply had more ancient East Eurasian samples.

Afaik ANE/AG are bad proxies for the eastern ancestry of EHG. Neolithic Baikal might be better.

 

[drecfg]

Are they still alive?

 

[4mypeople]

Maternal Haplogroup R1a here, my Eurogenes Hunter Gatherer VS Farmer results:

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Population[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"] [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Anatolian Farmer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]11.06 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Baltic Hunter Gatherer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]51.40 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Middle Eastern Herder[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]- [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East Asian Farmer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]- [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]South American Hunter Gatherer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]0.53 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]South Asian Hunter Gatherer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]2.13 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]0.08 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East African Pastoralist[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]- [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Oceanian Hunter Gatherer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]- [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Mediterranean Farmer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]34.52 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Pygmy Hunter Gatherer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]0.28 Pct[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Bantu Farmer[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

 

[epoch]

So what is the deal with Steppe Maykop? I keep seeing on Eurogenes all this West Siberian Neolithic talk, but what samples are they deriving this ancestral component from? I cannot find anything online about it. What is it exactly? How do they even differentiate the ANE in these samples? There is also the presence of EDAR in the Steppe Maykop, as well as in the Mesolithic Motala hunter gatherers of Sweden and in Karelia. Could we be looking at something connected to the spread of mtDNA C1 and Y-DNA R/Q during the Upper Paleolithic, or was this also a gene present in the earliest West Eurasians/Paleo-Europeans, but due to selection, it has been diluted to non-existence in most of Europe. Much of this can be solved if we simply had more ancient East Eurasian samples.

The deal is that qpAdm can't make feasible models of Steppe Maykop unless you add Karitiana Indians. And that admixture also pops up in Botai.

 

[bicicleur 2]

The deal is that qpAdm can't make feasible models of Steppe Maykop unless you add Karitiana Indians. And that admixture also pops up in Botai.

steppe maykop is late Khvalynsk
a mix of steppe DNA with a touch of Siberian
a mix of Y-DNA R1a, R1b-M478 and Q1a2
they were whiped out by Yamna, who also had steppe DNA but much less or no Siberian DNA

 

[johen]

steppe maykop is late Khvalynsk
a mix of steppe DNA with a touch of Siberian
a mix of Y-DNA R1a, R1b-M478 and Q1a2
they were whiped out by Yamna, who also had steppe DNA but much less or no Siberian DNA

However, Yamna R1b adapted the wagon burial culture of Q1a as an elite culture. So I think it is just a transition w/o conflict within the same culture zone of sunhead/animal culture, like in altai. I think it would be a problem that modern people classification tool, genetics, applies to ancient people. Actually we don't know how the ancient people classified themselves.

Overview of archaeological sources confirming the astronomical dating We consider it necessary to argue our position particularly on correct attribution First Sunduk and Seraphim Stone to Okunev and Andronovo cultures of Khakassia As was convincingly shown by the studies of Khakassia University archeological laboratory under the direction of A. Gotlib [19], D. A. Kirillova and M.A. Podol`skaya publications [20,21], sanctuaries of the same kind in Khakassia existed during different periods of the Bronze Age – from Afanas`ev to Karasuk culture. Okunev ceramics were discovered on four sve (Khakassia term meaning «stronghold on a mountain») examined by these authors. On Chebaki sve that is located 30 km south-west from the described objects A. I. Gottlieb discovered Okunev and Karasuk ceramics. D. A. Kirillova and M.A. Podol`skaya studied sve Kyzul hai, located on the right bank of Black Ius river between s. Ustinkino and s. Podkamen`, 25 km north-west from the objects described in the article. Okunev, Karasuk and Andronivo ceramics were discovered in the Kyzul hai sve. Structures such as system of swells, marking and isolating inner space and the «wall» made of dry masonry of sandstone slabs [22] similar to the objects described in the mentioned sources were discovered on the First Sundu territory. Based on that as well as on the object`s chronology in accordance to the observations of Arkturus on the First Sunduk we came to the conclusion that the First Sunduk is the monument of Okunev and Andronovo cultures. We are also sure that should archeological excavations be conducted Okunev, Karasuk, Andronovo and Afanas`ev ceramics are found. Seraphim Stone was attributed to the Okunev culture because of two images placed in situ on the Stone that are certainly attributed to the Okunev culture. Judging by the Arcturus and Betelgeuse observation, we can attribute Seraphim Stone to the Okunev-Andronovo culture. The presence of the two atypical images that define astronomically significant directions and cannot be attributed

 

[Tomenable]

But the datas are here, Maikop Steppe are north eurasian R1 foragers and Maikop foothills are CHG / middle eastern. Maikop was not indo-european and certainly played the rule of the kartvelian influence in PIE and the introduction of metallurgy and or carts. Western part of eastern europe was EHG so ANE with some WHG influence and the eastern part were EHG with female mediated CHG influence (...)

This myth probably echoes some cultural practices and admixture events that were taking place there:

The legend about Gargarians and Amazons: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/11E*.html

"The mountains above Albania" refer of course to Caucasian Albania and North Caucasus Mountains.

 

[Susanfut]

Ancient genomes from Caucasus inc Maykop

There was that entire bit at the end of Legend where you had to go through the ark that transported the humans from the Blue Star to Lunar. So, they had the relics in the beginning which explained what happened and how Althena brought them here. KF

 

[ratchet_fan]

What makes Q1a more Siberian than R1a or R1b? Isn't it likely all three moved together as part of heavily ANE population?

 

[ratchet_fan]

So what is the deal with Steppe Maykop? I keep seeing on Eurogenes all this West Siberian Neolithic talk, but what samples are they deriving this ancestral component from? I cannot find anything online about it. What is it exactly? How do they even differentiate the ANE in these samples? There is also the presence of EDAR in the Steppe Maykop, as well as in the Mesolithic Motala hunter gatherers of Sweden and in Karelia. Could we be looking at something connected to the spread of mtDNA C1 and Y-DNA R/Q during the Upper Paleolithic, or was this also a gene present in the earliest West Eurasians/Paleo-Europeans, but due to selection, it has been diluted to non-existence in most of Europe. Much of this can be solved if we simply had more ancient East Eurasian samples.

WSHG are 20% East Eurasian so that could explain it.