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K15 New map of the Atlantic admixture (Eurogenes K15)

Hi, I'm a newbie and very happy to have found this group.

I'm Welsh, with very many generations, on nearly all lines, coming from 2 Welsh counties, I would have expected a higher Atlantic admixture. It seems I do get higher numbers on other tools.

North Sea: 41.20%
Atlantic: 23.81%
Baltic: 9.69%
Eastern Euro: 8.93%
West Med: 11.59%
West Asian: 2.86%
South Asian: 0.73%
Siberian: 0.61%
Amerindian: 0.11%
Oceanian: 0.47%

Although, when I look at the other break outs using Eurogenes K15, I seem to be predominantly West Norwegian.
 
Welcome Llandeilo!

I think "Atlantic" in K15, is a mixture of two different components origin: North Atlantic (Origin WHG) + Iberian (EEF), which gives it a hardly understandable aspect in K15.
In clear, i think "Atlantic" did not exist!

You should try K36.
It is possible that you have a higher rate for North Atlantic and low for Iberian.
For comparison, in K36, British have about 17% for North Atlantic and 12% for Iberian
 
gervais said:
Welcome Llandeilo!

I think "Atlantic" in K15, is a mixture of two different components origin: North Atlantic (Origin WHG) + Iberian (EEF), which gives it a hardly understandable aspect in K15.
In clear, i think "Atlantic" did not exist!

You should try K36.
It is possible that you have a higher rate for North Atlantic and low for Iberian.
For comparison, in K36, British have about 17% for North Atlantic and 12% for Iberian
Click to expand...

I think "Atlantic" represents the expansion of LP people after the neolithic from a source in Cantabria/Brittany

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Atlantic-admixture.png

and "North Sea" represents the same thing but from a second source around the North Sea/Scandinavia

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Northwest_European

both were particular local mixtures of paleo HG/neolithic farmer/IE DNA imo so neither represent base populations but those particular local mixtures had an explosive expansion along the Atlantic coast at a particular moment in time as a result of LP and a slower eastward drift over time after that initial explosion.

If you add the two components together (Atlantic + NW Euro) the combined value more or less maps onto modern LP levels.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7VSAmkCAAMMS8c.png:large
 
it's difficult to compare 'atlantic' in different K's: K12, K15, K36 etc... it's confusing I think
for K15, if I'm right, 'atlantic' appears about more than 12% in Ust'Ishim and Kostenki-14 (>30000 BC and >20000 BC) and it disappears almost completley in HG Samara man. It regains some strength (about 5%) in later Yamnaya Samara. Question: is this the same 'atlantic'? did people from Finland or Karelia get southwards meanwhile without 'atlantic' or almost, and Central Asia 'atlantic' arrived or came back into Samara at Yamanaya times, or is it a West to East introgression of North Atlantic North Sea people in the Steppes???
according to periods, the moves changed direction. Archeology seems attesting migrations after LGM from France-Cantabria complex to NorthEast Europe and maybe very late even during Neolithic South the Baltic until North Russia. these last expansions could have leaven some spotty populations differing in big proportions from the previous ones. So a part of 'atlantic' DNA could have reached some tribes far in North-East Europe. But some of the MODERN 'atlantic' aDNA seems less WHG and more 'west-med': : could the megalithers (like the Long Barrows people having influenced Funnelbeaker C.) be responsible of an addition of aDNA (more of intruding 'west-med' + less of ancient WHG)? the question is not so ridiculous and archeology changes by time with new discoveries coming to complete the patchwork; the physical anthropology, so mocked by some people, doesn't contradict these facts concerning some places, even if I take it as a complement of knowledge, not as the main tool of it. Some of our old certitudes have bursted off. the East to West moves so typical of the I-Ean and others invasions can have dissimulated some opposite moves, less important. the ABO (O, rhesus -) distributions in Europe support partly the same scenario even if this tool is very unprecise sometimes. the m-tH distributions is interesting too.
 
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.55
2 Atlantic 19
3 West_Med 15.02
4 West_Asian 12.71
5 North_Sea 10.29
6 Eastern_Euro 7.04
7 Baltic 5.63
8 Red_Sea 4.42
9 South_Asian 1.49
10 Amerindian 0.55
11 Sub-Saharan 0.3
 
[TABLE="width: 198"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]Percent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]30.31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]17.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]17.34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]12.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]9.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]4.01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]3.49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]1.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]1.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]1.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population (source)[/TD]
[TD]Distance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[TD]5.19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD]5.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD]6.66[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD]7.68[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD]8.79[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[TD]8.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD]8.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[TD]10.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[TD]10.37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[TD]10.62[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 578"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Using 2 populations approximation:[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 7"]1 50% Central_Greek +50% South_Italian @ 5.471951[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Using 3 populations approximation:[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.225592[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Using 4 populations approximation:[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]1 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.703165[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]2 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.792818[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]3 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Central_Greek + North_Italian @ 4.795398[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 9"]4 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek + Tuscan @ 4.940431[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 9"]5 Armenian + Greek + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.969768[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo 4.84
2 West_Sicilian 5.71
3 Greek 6.85
4 Tuscan 7.53
5 Central_Greek 7.66
6 East_Sicilian 8.05
7 Ashkenazi 8.75
8 Greek_Thessaly 9.29
9 South_Italian 9.68
10 Bulgarian 12.26
11 North_Italian 12.79
12 Italian_Jewish 13.09
13 Sephardic_Jewish 13.16
14 Romanian 13.93
15 Algerian_Jewish 14.33
16 Serbian 16.34
17 Tunisian_Jewish 17.68
18 Spanish_Extremadura 19.07
19 Spanish_Andalucia 19.23
20 Spanish_Murcia 19.36


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.8% Southwest_French + 45.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 3.53
2 94.1% Italian_Abruzzo + 5.9% MA-1 @ 3.54
3 55.1% Southwest_French + 44.9% Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.6
4 92% Italian_Abruzzo + 8% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.73
5 93.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 6.8% Chuvash @ 3.76
6 94% Italian_Abruzzo + 6% Mari @ 3.79
7 92.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.4% Erzya @ 3.82
8 89.3% West_Sicilian + 10.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 3.83
9 88.4% West_Sicilian + 11.6% Tatar @ 3.83
10 76% West_Sicilian + 24% Romanian @ 3.84
11 89.8% West_Sicilian + 10.2% Erzya @ 3.86
12 88.8% West_Sicilian + 11.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.87
13 79.1% West_Sicilian + 20.9% Serbian @ 3.88
14 92.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.5% Estonian_Polish @ 3.9
15 88.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 11.4% Austrian @ 3.91
16 89.3% West_Sicilian + 10.7% Tabassaran @ 3.92
17 92.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.4% East_Finnish @ 3.93
18 89.1% West_Sicilian + 10.9% Southwest_Russian @ 3.94
19 92.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.8% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.95
20 92.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 7.6% Southwest_Russian @ 3.96

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +25% French_Basque +25% Serbian @ 3.616444




Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Austrian + Cyprian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.742715
2 French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.942163
3 Algerian_Jewish + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.979804
4 Algerian_Jewish + French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish + Serbian @ 2.980447
5 French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.016441
6 Algerian_Jewish + Assyrian + French_Basque + Serbian @ 3.021501
7 Cyprian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Serbian @ 3.062569
8 French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.071012
9 Austrian + Cyprian + French_Basque + Iranian_Jewish @ 3.077204
10 French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Moldavian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.101743
11 French_Basque + Italian_Jewish + Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.136735
12 Algerian_Jewish + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Moldavian @ 3.164120
13 Cyprian + East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.170987
14 Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Aragon + West_Sicilian @ 3.171661
15 Assyrian + French_Basque + Sephardic_Jewish + Serbian @ 3.172798
16 Kurdish_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Valencia + West_Sicilian @ 3.175521
17 Iranian_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Aragon + West_Sicilian @ 3.203618
18 Azeri + Lebanese_Druze + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 3.234926
19 Iranian_Jewish + Serbian + Spanish_Valencia + West_Sicilian @ 3.241805
20 Croatian + Cyprian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish @ 3.243646
 
Joey D said:
[TABLE="width: 198"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]Percent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]30.31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]17.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]17.34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]12.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]9.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]4.01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]3.49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]1.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]1.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]1.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population (source)[/TD]
[TD]Distance[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[TD]5.19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD]5.69[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD]6.66[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD]7.68[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD]8.79[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[TD]8.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD]8.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[TD]10.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[TD]10.37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[TD]10.62[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 578"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Using 2 populations approximation:[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 7"]1 50% Central_Greek +50% South_Italian @ 5.471951[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Using 3 populations approximation:[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.225592[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]Using 4 populations approximation:[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]1 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.703165[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]2 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.792818[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 10"]3 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Central_Greek + North_Italian @ 4.795398[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 9"]4 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek + Tuscan @ 4.940431[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 9"]5 Armenian + Greek + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.969768[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
It is impressive that you score a very low Red Sea, kinda like a French or an German. For example I score 3% instead.
 
^ Looks like his North Sea and Baltic are taking away from his Red Sea. Everything else seems about right. Might mean Norman Ancestry.
 
There are always going to be slight variations, even between siblings and other family members. I don't think there is enough appreciation for how much chance comes into all of this when you're looking not at averages but at an individual's results.

All this over-interpretation of results and trying to correlate them with specific historical events is highly problematic.

I know that probably because of gedmatch Admixture calculators are very popular, but they're not easy to interpret and, in fact, very easy to misinterpret.

You also need to look at formal stats to get a more complete picture.
 
New Englander said:
^ Looks like his North Sea and Baltic are taking away from his Red Sea. Everything else seems about right. Might mean Norman Ancestry.
Click to expand...
More likely North Western Italian judging by his countries, since there are town near of him that are Lombard or part so, like Randazzo, Maniace etc. At the same time, i also myself score high East Euro and Baltic admix (on Eurogenes K13 the last component is almost 12%) and my Y-DNA is common in the Balkans but I've find contacts from Germany and even England. Strange, really strange.
 
Angela said:
There are always going to be slight variations, even between siblings and other family members. I don't think there is enough appreciation for how much chance comes into all of this when you're looking not at averages but at an individual's results.

All this over-interpretation of results and trying to correlate them with specific historical events is highly problematic.

I know that probably because of gedmatch Admixture calculators are very popular, but they're not easy to interpret and, in fact, very easy to misinterpret.

You also need to look at formal stats to get a more complete picture.
Click to expand...
Indeed, I agree and the results can change from calculator to calculator. My results have variation, for example on my DNA Land I score 31% Balkan while on 23andme I've 5%, at the same time on this last tool I'm mostly Italian, close to 90+%.
 
Not all calculators are equal. I can guarantee you that most people get higher northeastern and eastern Europe on the eurogenes calculators. They're designed that way.

Then you have to factor in that not only in calculators, but in commercial testing results, clusters that bear the same name may not represent the same exact genetic group.

As for DNA Land versus 23andme, as we've discussed before, 23andme has a cluster centered on the Italian peninsula. It also has a specific Balkan cluster. DNA Land looked at the alleles spread across north/north Central Italy and the Balkans and called the cluster Balkan. That gave a lot of Italians a lot of Balkan. Had they called it North/Central Italian a lot of people in the Balkans would have gotten a lot of "Italian". It's all the same genes.

You just can't take these things all that literally.

In Joey's case, given the location of his ancestral area, northwestern Italians are probably a better bet, but it might just be chance.

At 23andme my only non-northwest Italian close "cousins" are from Denmark. Does it have something to do with the "Lombard" castles dotting every hill or is it just another one of those "false flags", IBD sharing that is just the result of recombination of stray bits of dna? Who knows?
 
I agree with these posts, these various tests throw up all sorts of results, and clearly some place a greater weighting on one or another region.

So for me, it's just a bit of fun, and to be frank, it doesn't keep me up at night.

Having said that, there are obvious pointers which keep cropping up which I think do carry some significance: Greece (obviously), the Near East and the Caucasus - I'm especially interested in the latter, and also this Ashkenazi result which keeps popping up everywhere (granted, I'm starting to understand why the Ashkenazi and Sicilians plot closely together).
 
In Joey's case, given the location of his ancestral area, northwestern Italians are probably a better bet, but it might just be chance.
Click to expand...
It is interesting that in the Fiorito's IBDs the first Italian region is not Basilicata and Calabria who makes more sense for geography and history but Liguria. A signal of North Italian settlements for sure judging also by the position of Val d'Aosta.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FQOJVWKiN_Y4-IoUUdPIjqfzdN-zH9R-9C_vwcbciCw/edit#gid=0
 
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