hrvat22
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hahahaa..Croats beat Avars, Romans,Franks,
Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks, Tartars, Venetians, Montenegrins, Germans, Italians and finally liberated from Hungarians...
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E1b1b1 and J2 in Balkans and Italy
- Thread starter Fire Haired14
- Start date
hahahaa..Croats beat Avars, Romans,Franks,
Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks, Tartars, Venetians, Montenegrins, Germans, Italians and finally liberated from Hungarians...
Maleth
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Wiki article is 2015 all the studies are trustworthy scientific studies that have also been quoted in trombetta et al most recent and not mere opinions. And you have not quoted were he specifically mentions that E-V13 entered via North Africa.
Read Eupida (Maciamos) article well
You know what? like Angela said it really does not matter if it entered via Aborigines territory or Siberia. I guess what people are interested in correct data and historical knowledge. With your style of writing one can easily understand you are not interested in any of this and enjoying fighting windmills. Apart from this I don't believe that cats can fly yet :grin:......keep grasping at straws they might turn to ropes some day....enjoy
Maleth
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? :useless::grin:
A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[111] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total (note that Albanians from other regions do not show quite as high a percentage of E1b1b):
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]N[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-M78*[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-V13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-M81[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-M123[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I2a2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]R1b[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]R1a[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]114[/TD]
[TD]1.75%[/TD]
[TD]43.85%[/TD]
[TD]0.90%[/TD]
[TD]0.90%[/TD]
[TD]16.70%[/TD]
[TD]5.31%[/TD]
[TD]2.65%[/TD]
[TD]21.10%[/TD]
[TD]4.42%[/TD]
[TD]1.77%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
A study by Battaglia et al in 2008[103] found the following haplogroup distributions among Albanians in Albania itself:
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]N[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-M78*[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-V13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]G[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I2a1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I2b[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J2a[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]R1a[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]R1b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]55[/TD]
[TD]1.8%[/TD]
[TD]23.6%[/TD]
[TD]1.8%[/TD]
[TD]3.6%[/TD]
[TD]14.5%[/TD]
[TD]3.6%[/TD]
[TD]3.6%[/TD]
[TD]5.4%[/TD]
[TD]14.5%[/TD]
[TD]9.1%[/TD]
[TD]18.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The same study by Battaglia et al (2008) also found the following distributions among Albanians in Macedonia:
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]N[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-M78*[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-V13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]E-M123[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]G[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I2a[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I2a1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]I2a2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J2a1b[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]R1a[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]R1b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]34.4%[/TD]
[TD]3.1%[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]4.7%[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]9.4%[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]6.3%[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]14.1%[/TD]
[TD]1.6%[/TD]
[TD]18.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Maleth. I don't think he will accept this data. He will go back cherry pick and recycle the same old nonsense about Albanians.
Fire Haired14
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Can't wait till ancient genomes from Greece is published. It'd be a discovery of the ages if a Yamnaya-type with R1b-Z2103 is found in supposed proto-Greeks.
Any idea when they are supposed to publish these results? I agree, it will be very interesting to see what they found as far as Y-DNA goes.
Angela
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Wiki article is 2015 all the studies are trustworthy scientific studies that have also been quoted in trombetta et al most recent and not mere opinions. And you have not quoted were he specifically mentions that E-V13 entered via North Africa.
Read Eupida (Maciamos) article well
You know what? like Angela said it really does not matter if it entered via Aborigines territory or Siberia. I guess what people are interested in correct data and historical knowledge. With your style of writing one can easily understand you are not interested in any of this and enjoying fighting windmills. Apart from this I don't believe that cats can fly yet......keep grasping at straws they might turn to ropes some day....enjoy
There are people who are interested in population genetics as a discipline (usually academics) whom it behooves to try to be as objective as possible for the sake of their careers, there are people who are interested in exploring their ancestral lineages and the history of their people who by nature or training try to approach the material with honesty and integrity, and then there is the unfortunate underbelly of the population genetics world, which is made up of either ultra-nationalist or racist (sometimes the two go together) people who could care less about the objective reality and are only interested in manipulating the data or the interpretation of the data so as to make their own "group" superior by their distorted standards.
You can add to that the fact that some men, particularly young men, treat every discussion as a duel for dominance over other men, and you can then get edifying conversations like the one on this thread. It's irritating and boring to have to read, like being a lunch room monitor in a boys' middle school, but there you have it.
Very helpful summary of where the debate stands as to E-V13. I think ancient dna will give us more clarity, although even then there may be some ambiguity. As to the other clades of "E", there is even more ambiguity. There is indeed more diversity in Italy than in the Balkans. Is diversity an indication of "origin"? Perhaps, in some cases. Is diversity a sign of gene flow into an area? Sometimes, particularly if that place was a world power. There's also the fact that there has been gene flow back and forth along the Mediterranean, from Gibraltar to the eastern Med, for millennia, just as there has been gene flow back and forth across the north European plain and the steppe for millennia. I think it should now be clear that one can't explain the populating of Europe with neat, little, one directional arrows.
So, I don't know. No one knows; we're just speculating.
Fire Haired14
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No. But some results have been told to the media and have been discussed in conferences over the last year. I'd expect the results to be published by fall 2016 or earlier. I'm not sure if genomes were sequenced or just mtDNA and Y DNA.
Maleth
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I agree. I also believe genetics are also moving at a fast pace (although we always wish for it to move faster
) Its not easy to get the puzzle together and we keep getting surprises, new time spans, hypothesis and theories. We have come a long way but we got an even longer way to go. Interesting times bicicleur 2
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even that isn't sure, as this conclusion of the individual in Avelaner Cave is made from STR analysis
not one SNP has been identified
the person in Avelaner Cave was related to E-V13 but not necesarily E-V13
Sigfrido
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So what? You are quoting Maciamo from 2011 or so. We now in 2015 know that E-M78 arrived in Europe directly from North Africa and not from the Middle East, so considering where the highest diversity of E-M78 is found, it is logical to assume that Balkaners got their E-V13 from Italy. I am talking about new data. Stop quoting stuff from 2010 or so.Also you can check the Eupedia maps of haplogroups and see that Albanians have much more E-M81 than Italians. Which de facto disproves the whole idea of merchants coming in Italy during the Roman Empire and crap.
Yetos
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E-v13 is the enigma of Balkans,
somehow isolated from other E but with high densities sometimes,
Italians combine it with some RNA and Herpes anex/resist anti and say that is palaiolithic
yet other Italians find that where it has high densities to be almost with Iron age,
:argue: :argue:
no mark/data has been found yet from pre-history to antigue, and the closest is at minor Asia modern Turkey,
@ Meliteus
I am not a racist,
simply it is an enigma that nucleotidio :banghead:
:cool2:
it will be more easy to search :spiderman:'s DNA
somehow isolated from other E but with high densities sometimes,
Italians combine it with some RNA and Herpes anex/resist anti and say that is palaiolithic
yet other Italians find that where it has high densities to be almost with Iron age,
:argue: :argue:
no mark/data has been found yet from pre-history to antigue, and the closest is at minor Asia modern Turkey,
@ Meliteus
I am not a racist,
simply it is an enigma that nucleotidio :banghead:
:cool2:
it will be more easy to search :spiderman:'s DNA
DuPidh
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Why don't you worry about Serb Q, O, N and dont forget E-m81. You think the E Serbia has is not from Africa?
The logic you are using to make your arguments proves that you have some Ghengis Khan connections? No?
Angela
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I have just read every word of Trombetta et al 2015. I also went through all the supplementary info. There is ONE sentence that discusses anything related to E-M78 and E-V13.
"Within this clade, the posterior probability (0.97) strongly favors an eastern African placement for the origin of the E-M215 diversity, as previously suggested by Semino et al. (2004) and Gebremeskel and Ibrahim (2014), whereas a northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007)."
That's it. Everybody already knew that M78 probably arose in North Africa. The question is did it get to Europe during the Mesolithic directly from North Africa (to Italy) and then spread, or did it travel up through the Levant and then it (and the further downstream E-V13) came to Europe during the Neolithic. Both are perfectly possible.
Trombetta et al 2015 doesn't address either of those questions. You therefore misrepresented the findings of the study. There is no new proof in support of your speculations.
We are all entitled to our opinions about various papers, or how much weight we wish to attach to which study or type of analysis. However, there is a difference between that and the deliberate misrepresentation of data and/or the findings of a paper. That's a serious matter. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't do it deliberately, but be advised: don't do it again. There are consequences for deliberate misrepresentations.
"Within this clade, the posterior probability (0.97) strongly favors an eastern African placement for the origin of the E-M215 diversity, as previously suggested by Semino et al. (2004) and Gebremeskel and Ibrahim (2014), whereas a northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007)."
That's it. Everybody already knew that M78 probably arose in North Africa. The question is did it get to Europe during the Mesolithic directly from North Africa (to Italy) and then spread, or did it travel up through the Levant and then it (and the further downstream E-V13) came to Europe during the Neolithic. Both are perfectly possible.
Trombetta et al 2015 doesn't address either of those questions. You therefore misrepresented the findings of the study. There is no new proof in support of your speculations.
We are all entitled to our opinions about various papers, or how much weight we wish to attach to which study or type of analysis. However, there is a difference between that and the deliberate misrepresentation of data and/or the findings of a paper. That's a serious matter. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't do it deliberately, but be advised: don't do it again. There are consequences for deliberate misrepresentations.
Maleth
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E-v13 is the enigma of Balkans,
somehow isolated from other E but with high densities sometimes,
Italians combine it with some RNA and Herpes anex/resist anti and say that is palaiolithic
yet other Italians find that where it has high densities to be almost with Iron age,
:argue: :argue:
no mark/data has been found yet from pre-history to antigue, and the closest is at minor Asia modern Turkey,
@ Meliteus
I am not a racist,
simply it is an enigma that nucleotidio :banghead:
:cool2:
it will be more easy to search :spiderman:'s DNA
I dont see anything racist in what you stated.....try and explain what you just wrote to Sigrido :grin:, besides that he needs to become much more familiar between times spans of the creation of M-78 and later many other subgroups separated by thousands of years different climatic conditions and population densities and migration routes for different reasons which we can only vaguely assume.
:wary2: