Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

[Piro Ilir]

You find it more plausible that Lithuanians conquered Mediterranean?

No, I just was concluding your theory, which was scientifically completely impossible . Lithuanians are a different branch of IE languages. They are from the Baltic branch. Albanian is different. There is a possibility that illyrians and proto Baltics were neighbors before 4000-4500 years ago. There are some affinities between the Albanian language and the Baltic languages. But that's it. Nothing more. It is just a hypothesis from the scholars.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I think that contrary to all they hailed from South Italy and or Sicily,this can explain their "ancient" Latin loanwords us they say and the old Greek,since Greeks had colonies there,plus Albanian has matching with Messapian which was exactly from there,they match in genetics more there,then with the Balkan people.

Italian theory
Laonikos Chalkokondyles (c. 1423–1490), the Byzantine historian, thought that the Albanians hailed from Italy. The theory has its origin in the first mention of the Albanians, disputed whether it refers to Albanians in an ethnic sense,made by Attaliates (11th century): "... For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders..

The time they are mentioned first there was very much religious wars troughout the Balkans and competition among Byzantines,Latins and various other Slavic polities,how they ended i don't know.

Mesapians were not illyrians. They had spoken a centum not a satem branch. It's impossible linguistically that they were proto Albanians. Modern scholars agreed that they were not illyrians. Albanian language has words by north west Hellenic dialect and doric dialect. So has nothing to do with the Sicily and south Italy. I read your previous post. I don't see what is the conclusion of your long long post. I have read before all the stuff there.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I think that contrary to all they hailed from South Italy and or Sicily,this can explain their "ancient" Latin loanwords us they say and the old Greek,since Greeks had colonies there,plus Albanian has matching with Messapian which was exactly from there,they match in genetics more there,then with the Balkan people.

Italian theory
Laonikos Chalkokondyles (c. 1423–1490), the Byzantine historian, thought that the Albanians hailed from Italy. The theory has its origin in the first mention of the Albanians, disputed whether it refers to Albanians in an ethnic sense,made by Attaliates (11th century): "... For when subsequent commanders made base and shameful plans and decisions, not only was the island lost to Byzantium, but also the greater part of the army. Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders..

The time they are mentioned first there was very much religious wars troughout the Balkans and competition among Byzantines,Latins and various other Slavic polities,how they ended i don't know.

I don't see anything for dispute here. You think that Albanians were living around ancient Rome. Come on. I think he is clear on this source, but modern people are playing with his words

 

[Piro Ilir]

There is also a possibility that Albanian is a Hybrid language formed when two groups - one from Sicily and another from Carpates merged together with Dorian leftovers in the Epirus.





Really? How did you get to this conclusion?

Linguistically is impossible. This term doesn't exist. First time hearing this. The language evolves , it didn't get hybrid. The core of the language is one. Romanian language could have some paleontologists balkanic substrate, but it is a Latin language too. The core is Latin, it's not paleo balkanic.

 

[Piro Ilir]

It's exactly what I meant.There are no tested skeletons just speculations.

Generally I don't know much about genetics. This was what I had read.

 

[Piro Ilir]

I neither said nor implied that there was any lack of proof for a migration of Slavic speaking peoples into the Balkans in the early Middle Ages. I would never do such a thing because it would be contrary to all archaeological, linguistic, historical, and now genetic evidence. To argue that it never happened is another exercise in futility. (Of course, these migrating Slavic speakers were not the same genetically as the modern people who identify as Balkan Slavs.)

Specifically how much of a genetic change this caused autosomally is another issue. There are also some differences by group, although most Balkanites are pretty darn similar genetically.

As to I2a Din, other than lots of ancient dna showing it didn't exist in the Balkans before the Roman era, another clue would lie in improved resolution of the phylogeny for I2a. Does I2a Din derive from the I2a branches that were present in the Balkans in the Neolithic, or does it derive from branches from far northern areas or from the steppe lands? As to R1a, the current evidence does seem to indicate that most of the R1a in the Balkans dates to the period of the Slavic migrations, although if some of it is from older, more ancestral clades, those could have come with the steppe related migrations. Absolute precision may be impossible in this specific instance, because older clades may have survived in the Slavic speakers and been swept along during the migrations.

The I2 found in Thrace was connected with the sardinian I2 ? Am I right?

 

[Ike]

As to I2a Din, other than lots of ancient dna showing it didn't exist in the Balkans before the Roman era...

No, we need samples from Roman or Illyrian era. There is not much use in knowing that it wasn't on Balkan 5 or 7 Kya.

 

[Милан М.]

I neither said nor implied that there was any lack of proof for a migration of Slavic speaking peoples into the Balkans in the early Middle Ages. I would never do such a thing because it would be contrary to all archaeological, linguistic, historical, and now genetic evidence. To argue that it never happened is another exercise in futility. (Of course, these migrating Slavic speakers were not the same genetically as the modern people who identify as Balkan Slavs.)

Specifically how much of a genetic change this caused autosomally is another issue. There are also some differences by group, although most Balkanites are pretty darn similar genetically.

As to I2a Din, other than lots of ancient dna showing it didn't exist in the Balkans before the Roman era, another clue would lie in improved resolution of the phylogeny for I2a. Does I2a Din derive from the I2a branches that were present in the Balkans in the Neolithic, or does it derive from branches from far northern areas or from the steppe lands? As to R1a, the current evidence does seem to indicate that most of the R1a in the Balkans dates to the period of the Slavic migrations, although if some of it is from older, more ancestral clades, those could have come with the steppe related migrations. Absolute precision may be impossible in this specific instance, because older clades may have survived in the Slavic speakers and been swept along during the migrations.

There is neither of those "proofs" you listed,therefore we have researches,depends what kind of hypothesis you favor,that's assumption about I2a din,that haplogroup can very well spread from the Balkans instead of southern Poland it's most frequent there anyway,about R1a you are wrong majority is not the same as in the northern Slavic countries.
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations.

 

[Angela]

There is neither of those "proofs" you listed,therefore we have researches,depends what kind of hypothesis you favor,that's assumption about I2a din,that haplogroup can very well spread from the Balkans instead southern Poland,about R1a you are wrong majority is not the same as in the northern Slavic countries.
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya

That's a-scientific nonsense, almost on a par with believing that the earth is flat. I have no more time to waste on this, but by all means continue talking in your echo chamber and thinking that the sound you hear is that of agreement.

 

[Милан М.]

That's a-scientific nonsense, almost on a par with believing that the earth is flat. I have no more time to waste on this, but by all means continue talking in your echo chamber and thinking that the sound you hear is that of agreement.

WOW,they don't know anything tell them,agreement thanks but who need it.

 

[DuPidh]

DearSDuPidh,two questions:can you prove,that I2a is slavic?Can you prov that R1a and I2a "are South Poland originated"?Thanks!

Can't you see that any south Slavic country in the Balkans has over 33% of its male haplogroups I2a din and another 16 to 18% R1a. Then in non Slavic countries of the Balkan's this male linage is not as significant. Can you check the presence of this haplogroups in western Ukraine and south Poland. Are they not approximately the same? is this a coincidence? Have you noticed that the Slavic language you speak has its origins in South Poland western Ukraine? how could that be? Have noticed that Roman documents do not mention the presence of Slavs as their subordinates? Have they forgotten to mention that? Have you red the Bizantine documents of 7 century that document mass Slavic migrations to the Balkans. What I said is that I2a din in The Balkans is Slavic for the above reasons.
Had I been Balkan shouldn't Kosovo Albanians been higher than 2% in this haplogroup? So there are so many hints about I2a connection with south Slavs. Slavs are an ethnicity no a race so they have other haplogroup linages but the predominant linage is the pair I2a+R1a+Siberian

 

[gyms]

Can't you see that any south Slavic country in the Balkans has over 33% of its male haplogroups I2a din and another 16 to 18% R1a. Then in non Slavic countries of the Balkan's this male linage is not as significant. Can you check the presence of this haplogroups in western Ukraine and south Poland. Are they not approximately the same? is this a coincidence? Have you noticed that the Slavic language you speak has its origins in South Poland western Ukraine? how could that be? Have noticed that Roman documents do not mention the presence of Slavs as their subordinates? Have they forgotten to mention that? Have you red the Bizantine documents of 7 century that document mass Slavic migrations to the Balkans. What I said is that I2a din in The Balkans is Slavic for the above reasons.
Had I been Balkan shouldn't Kosovo Albanians been higher than 2% in this haplogroup? So there are so many hints about I2a connection with south Slavs. Slavs are an ethnicity no a race so they have other haplogroup linages but the predominant linage is the pair I2a+R1a+Siberian

Modern haplogroup frequecies per se doesn't prove anything.As Jean Manco says:Arguments from modern DNA have been shown to be wrong by ancient DNA over and over and over again.
Do you have some slavic I2a aDNA in your "arsenal"?

 

[gyms]

The I2 found in Thrace was connected with the sardinian I2 ? Am I right?

Yes,it was connected with the sardinian I2.

 

[hrvat22]

DearSDuPidh,two questions:can you prove,that I2a is slavic?Can you prov that R1a and I2a "are South Poland originated"?Thanks!

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course Date: Tue, 20 May 2014

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460

I2a1b2a1CTS5966, CTS10228, L147.2
• • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

negative for I2a1b2a1a S17250 is I2a1b2a1CTS5966, CTS10228, L147.2 or father of White Croatian I2a1b2a1a S17250 in southe Poland and grandfather of Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 in Croatia..


administrator of I2a haplogrup..

Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group..


I2a movement throughout history ... Poland - Croatia...

https://web.archive.org/web/2011072...dt.home.bresnan.net/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf


Croatian R1a Z280 ...has great concentration in southern Poland but whether there originates is still unknown..

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zCFuZT9R8rxg.krb35UvaRd3c&hl=en

 

[hrvat22]

Can't you see that any south Slavic country in the Balkans has over 33% of its male haplogroups I2a din and another 16 to 18% R1a. Then in non Slavic countries of the Balkan's this male linage is not as significant. Can you check the presence of this haplogroups in western Ukraine and south Poland. Are they not approximately the same? is this a coincidence? Have you noticed that the Slavic language you speak has its origins in South Poland western Ukraine? how could that be? Have noticed that Roman documents do not mention the presence of Slavs as their subordinates? Have they forgotten to mention that? Have you red the Bizantine documents of 7 century that document mass Slavic migrations to the Balkans. What I said is that I2a din in The Balkans is Slavic for the above reasons.
Had I been Balkan shouldn't Kosovo Albanians been higher than 2% in this haplogroup? So there are so many hints about I2a connection with south Slavs. Slavs are an ethnicity no a race so they have other haplogroup linages but the predominant linage is the pair I2a+R1a+Siberian

I2a originally was not Indo-European or Slavic haplotype...but its later mutations that reside in Poland or Ukraine with R1a, and over there become Slavs...probably someone with these haplotypes came in contact with Slavs and then became Slavs...they mixed in Poland and Ukraine....

I2a1b2 L621/S392
• • • • • • I2a1b2a CTS10936
• • • • • • • I2a1b2a1 CTS5966, CTS10228, L147.2

 

[hrvat22]

There is neither of those "proofs" you listed,therefore we have researches,depends what kind of hypothesis you favor,that's assumption about I2a din,that haplogroup can very well spread from the Balkans instead of southern Poland it's most frequent there anyway,about R1a you are wrong majority is not the same as in the northern Slavic countries.
Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations.

In northwestern Croatia I2a is in second place and R1a on the first..what is different from the rest of Croatia ?
Fact that have a higher R1a ?

Serbs have a second haplotype in population Albanian E1b V13 that has nothing to do with Slavs, while Croats in Bosnia have minimum haplotype E1b and they are similar to the east of Balkans....how ?

But what this have to do with the arrival of Croats from White Croatia...?

Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 coming to Balkans as Croats .... this is logic ....and later become Bosnians, Montenegrins etc...

 

[Милан М.]

In northwestern Croatia I2a is in second place and R1a on the first..what is different from the rest of Croatia ?
Fact that have a higher R1a ?

Serbs have a second haplotype in population Albanian E1b V13 that has nothing to do with Slavs, while Croats in Bosnia have minimum haplotype E1b and they are similar to the east of Balkans....how ?

But what this have to do with the arrival of Croats from White Croatia...?

Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 coming to Balkans as Croats .... this is logic ....and later become Bosnians, Montenegrins etc...

What make you think or label,haplogroups with modern day ethnicity,the day when they arose there is no names such is Croat,Albanian etc,which in fact the origin of the very names are disputed and are from Middle Ages,Dalmatians if you read their chronicles most of them never used name such is Croat in self designation instead they did Dalmatian,illyrian,Slovinac-Slav,don't imagine communities such is white Croatia,because it will be what all Slavic speakers descend from white Croats wow, i wrote there is yet research on entire ethnogenesis,language etc..couple researchers on the Slavs even denied the migration recently or at least it was nowhere near as it was prior imagined,let alone they brought all the haplotypes with them,what was Balkans,waste land?

 

[hrvat22]

What make you think or label,haplogroups with modern day ethnicity,the day when they arose there is no names such is Croat,Albanian etc,which in fact the origin of the very names are disputed and are from Middle Ages,Dalmatians if you read their chronicles most of them never used name such is Croat instead they did Dalmatian,illyrian,Slovinac-Slav,don't imagine communities such is white Croatia,although maybe is popular among nationalists where they everywhere took part,because it will be what all Slavic speakers in Balkans descent from them?white Croats wow, i wrote there is yet research on entire ethnogenesis,language etc..couple researchers on the Slavs even denied the migration recently or at least it was nowhere near as it was prior imagined,let alone they brought all the haplotypes with them,what was Balkans,waste land?

Prove that I am wrong if you can, rather than talk fairy tales...

I do not say that entire Serbian people are Croatian origin, only those with I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 and with mutation I-Y3548 or about 25 percent of today Serbs...

When they explore all E1b mutation in Serbia and Albania, then we will know how many Serbs is Albanian origin...

 

[Ike]

Serbs have a second haplotype in population Albanian E1b V13 that has nothing to do with Slavs, while Croats in Bosnia have minimum haplotype E1b and they are similar to the east of Balkans....how ?

Not Serbs but Serbians. You know exactly what is the difference, and there is no need to try to convince yourself into something over the public forum.

Prove that I am wrong if you can, rather than talk fairy tales...

However plausible that sounds, you're the one who has to prove it. That's how science works.

I do not say that entire Serbian people are Croatian origin, only those with I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 and with mutation I-Y3548 or about 25 percent of today Serbs...

You still have to mitigate the fact that there was no recorded Croat migration into the western parts of Yugoslavia, and that since the incursion of Turks people only moved toward NW. So if Croats didn't come to Montenegro, Kosovo, Serbia and Macedonia at the very beginning, chances that they moved there later are even less plausible. What facts do we have about Croatian presence in these parts of Balkan from 8-13th century?

 

[Милан М.]

Prove that I am wrong if you can, rather than talk fairy tales...

I do not say that entire Serbian people are Croatian origin, only those with I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 and with mutation I-Y3548 or about 25 percent of today Serbs...

When they explore all E1b mutation in Serbia and Albania, then we will know how many Serbs is Albanian origin...

Can you first tell me the origin of Croatian name,then we can talk about haplogroups,I can recomend you Danijel Dzino,he is Croat only living in Australia,he study identity transformation in post Roman Illiricum.