Immigration Is Islam a noble religion?

[Maleth]

Exactly. That was my proof that Jesus wasn't a divine person. He couldn't exercise his god like powers, or wasn't shielded by god's will. Instead he had to behave more like a politician hiding his real convictions, just to survive.

I agree with you, but if you wanted to bring change you needed to do it through divinity. Paul of Tarsus was good at that and quite cleverly I should say made it appealing to the Greek and Roman Pagans by turning the persona of Jesus into a personified god (this is what pagans felt comfortable with and the language they understood) and filtered in nicely into the Pagan cults and with pagan stories of virginity and circumcision was not necessary and was also fine to eat Pork (if you get my gist). Paul of Tarsus fell out with the original Jesus movement in Jerusalem a number of times on a good number of issues. If it wasn't for Paul of Tarsus probably the Jesus movement would have been a mere sect or non existent these days.

 

[LeBrok]

I agree with you, but if you wanted to bring change you needed to do it through divinity. Paul of Tarsus was good at that and quite cleverly I should say made it appealing to the Greek and Roman Pagans by turning the persona of Jesus into a personified god (this is what pagans felt comfortable with and the language they understood) and filtered in nicely into the Pagan cults and with pagan stories of virginity and circumcision was not necessary and was also fine to eat Pork (if you get my gist). Paul of Tarsus fell out with the original Jesus movement in Jerusalem a number of times on a good number of issues. If it wasn't for Paul of Tarsus probably the Jesus movement would have been a mere sect or non existent these days.

Indeed, this could have been a moment where divinity of Jesus started.

 

[Fire Haired14]

You guys are making laugh. It is funny how you twist stories in the Bible to fit your agenda. What are the chances Jesus was an atheist humanist feminist, who acted religious to influence? The myth that Paul somehow forged the stories of Jesus is pathetic.

 

[Maleth]

You guys are making laugh. It is funny how you twist stories in the Bible to fit your agenda. What are the chances Jesus was an atheist humanist feminist, who acted religious to influence? The myth that Paul somehow forged the stories of Jesus is pathetic.

you are free to think and believe what you like except that the civil code of most countries now a days does not allow people to be killed because of religious believes such as those instructed by the 'non twisted' stories as you believe so much in the old testament part of the Bible and the Quran. I know people that believe in UFO's and are serious about it too but do not need higher laws to stop them killing anyone as they have no instruction from space aliens to kill others. Such a colourful world we live in.

 

[Maleth]

Indeed, this could have been a moment where divinity of Jesus started.

The biggest chunk of the Christian Church today is what is called the Pauline church, so much so that Paul of Tarsus was qualified as one of the apostles (without ever being chosen by Jesus) and the greatest one too.

 

[Yetos]

The biggest chunk of the Christian Church today is what is called the Pauline church, so much so that Paul of Tarsus was qualified as one of the apostles (without ever being chosen by Jesus) and the greatest one too.

that is beacause the difference among the Mosaic law to be forced first, to be forced eternal, or not to be forced,
the 4 'away' that paul gave, made him the apostole of nations,

 

[Angela]

You guys are making laugh. It is funny how you twist stories in the Bible to fit your agenda. What are the chances Jesus was an atheist humanist feminist, who acted religious to influence? The myth that Paul somehow forged the stories of Jesus is pathetic.

What on earth do you think a humanist is? What's your definition of a feminist? How can we discuss whether or not Jesus was either of those things if you may be using some outlandish definition.

Here's the standard dictionary definition.

Humanist...
1. a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity.

2. a person devoted to or versed in the humanities.

3. a student of human nature or affairs.

4. a classical scholar.

5. (sometimes initial capital letter) any one of the scholars of the Renaissance who pursued and disseminated the study and understanding of the cultures of ancient Rome and Greece, and emphasized secular, individualistic, and critical thought.

6. (sometimes initial capital letter) a person who follows a form of scientific or philosophical humanism.


I think the rest of us define humanist in this context as number 1. Where in the New Testament do you find anything that indicates Jesus should not be defined in that way?

Unless you're thinking of secular humanism? Jesus couldn't have been a secular humanist. He was a devout believer in God. Whoever said otherwise?

As for feminism, I don't remember anyone claiming he was a "feminist" in a Betty Friedan or even a Camille Paglia way. What people were saying is that Jesus gave women a role and a respect they didn't have, and still don't have in orthodox Judaism and Islam.

I'm afraid you're the one who is twisting the persona of Jesus to fit some gun toting red neck political belief. Those pictures are a total perversion of his message. For goodness sakes, he told people to pay their taxes to Rome and not rebel, and accepted tax collectors for the Romans as disciples, and this in a time when the Zealots were becoming more and more popular. It was the Zealots who rebelled against Rome, you know, a rebellion which ended with the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of the Jews to the four winds.

He also found goodness and worth in the Roman Centurian, and the Samaritan.

Today, women are still stoned to death for adultery...it's not adultery for men, of course. Jesus stopped the stoning of the woman taken in adultery.

How about the fact that in a time when most women were confined to their homes a woman was a disciple, and the first person to whom he appeared?

Do I have to go on and on? Didn't you read the Bible growing up? No Sunday school classes, at least. I'm reminded of one of my lecturers in English Renaissance literature. He told some students to go home and read the Bible. Whether you're an atheist or a believer, you can't understand European history, literature, art or music without being familiar with it.

 

[LeBrok]

You guys are making laugh. It is funny how you twist stories in the Bible to fit your agenda. What are the chances Jesus was an atheist humanist feminist,

Humanist means atheist?! Could you cite one of us saying that Jesus was atheist. Right, no one. I guess your imagination did a trick on you.

Edit: I see Angela too care of it in depth.

The myth that Paul somehow forged the stories of Jesus is pathetic.

We only know story about Jesus from apostles, and only the ones early Church didn't burn. These are the facts. It would be a different story if Jesus wrote something himself, but he didn't. Perhaps he didn't even think his life will be a beginning of biggest religion ever, to take some steps of preserving his real story and philosophy.

 

[Fire Haired14]

We only know story about Jesus from apostles, and only the ones early Church didn't burn. These are the facts. It would be a different story if Jesus wrote something himself, but he didn't. Perhaps he didn't even think his life will be a beginning of biggest religion ever, to take some steps of preserving his real story and philosophy.

The way you word and present the facts changes how people interpret them. It's more complex than the early church burned other writings, as if they were afraid of them., which you probably want people to think. It's more like they decided certain writings were less valuable or false.

It would be a different story if Jesus wrote something himself, but he didn't. Perhaps he didn't even think his life will be a beginning of biggest religion ever, to take some steps of preserving his real story and philosophy.

That's your opinion. Of course his unknown philosophy would somehow align with your views 2,000 years later, not of people who actually knew him, or from the same era and knew people who knew him.

 

[LeBrok]

The way you word and present the facts changes how people interpret them. It's more complex than the early church burned other writings, as if they were afraid of them., which you probably want people to think. It's more like they decided certain writings were less valuable or false.

And who were day to decide what future generations should read?! One thing is not to include what you want making the bible, and another to destroy completely what you don't like.

That's your opinion. Of course his unknown philosophy would somehow align with your views 2,000 years later, not of people who actually knew him, or from the same era and knew people who knew him.

Could you verse your thought a bit clearer? I don't know what you mean.

 

[Fire Haired14]

What on earth do you think a humanist is? What's your definition of a feminist? How can we discuss whether or not Jesus was either of those things if you may be using some outlandish definition.

I actually just learned about humanist in school. It was contrasted to religious people. That a humanist is someone who thinks humanity only needs its itself not God.

I was reacting to a comment made my Maleth where he seems to have been saying that Paul added the religious part to Jesus's story and other aspects to appeal to Romans and Greeks.

As for feminism, I don't remember anyone claiming he was a "feminist" in a Betty Friedan or even a Camille Paglia way. What people were saying is that Jesus gave women a role and a respect they didn't have, and still don't have in orthodox Judaism and Islam.

I guess you're right. I guess I view feminist ideas as an extreme thing not as someone who's against sexism. I was just pointing out that Jesus lived in a totally differnt world and "feminist'(and most political ideas) in the sense we think of didn't totally exist. So, we shouldn't put the ideas and actions of people made in that era in a box of 21st century idealists. Of course there were people who had similar ideas, but I doubt anything exactly the same.

I'm afraid you're the one who is twisting the persona of Jesus to fit some gun toting red neck political belief. Those pictures are a total perversion of his message.

I was joking around with those images. I'm pretty sure no one puts those in their churches. They were made as a joke. I don't think Jesus was a "toting red neck". I come out too strongly sometimes when I dis agree with people.

He also found goodness and worth in the Roman Centurian, and the Samaritan.

How about the fact that in a time when most women were confined to their homes a woman was a disciple, and the first person to whom he appeared?

I know this. Just I think people are miss interpreting Jesus and the early church as comparable modern activist because of their humanism. Being against racism and sexism before the modern era just fell under being a nice guy or deep thinker.

 

[Angela]

I actually just learned about humanist in school. It was contrasted to religious people. That a humanist is someone who thinks humanity only needs its itself not God.

I was reacting to a comment made my Maleth where he seems to have been saying that Paul added the religious part to Jesus's story and other aspects to appeal to Romans and Greeks.



I guess you're right. I guess I view feminist ideas as an extreme thing not as someone who's against sexism. I was just pointing out that Jesus lived in a totally differnt world and "feminist'(and most political ideas) in the sense we think of didn't totally exist. So, we shouldn't put the ideas and actions of people made in that era in a box of 21st century idealists. Of course there were people who had similar ideas, but I doubt anything exactly the same.



I was joking around with those images. I'm pretty sure no one puts those in their churches. They were made as a joke. I don't think Jesus was a "toting red neck". I come out too strongly sometimes when I dis agree with people.





I know this. Just I think people are miss interpreting Jesus and the early church as comparable modern activist because of their humanism. Being against racism and sexism before the modern era just fell under being a nice guy or deep thinker.

Well, I'm glad that you expressed yourself more clearly.

As to your teacher, I'm by no means going to tell you to take her on. Even with my own kids, I always taught them that discretion is the better part of valor when the other person has such total power over your future. Also, to be fair, they probably have five minutes to get some of these ideas across.

However, she's dead wrong, or at least she has grossly simplified matters. The "humanist" philosophy of the Renaissance did not necessarily erase God from the equation. It merely put more emphasis on "humanity" than had hitherto been the case.

If you have a chance, take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_humanism

This is a pretty good summary of Christian Humanism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism

 

[bicicleur 2]

well, we're totaly off-topic here
the topic is about present-day Islam
it's typical
try to change the subject to all that went wrong in Christianity in the past
and all that goes wrong in the name of present-day Islam is excused

 

[Yetos]

οκ

Ι do not know if islam is noble
but i know that nobles exist in islam

 

[Maleth]

well, we're totaly off-topic here
the topic is about present-day Islam
it's typical
try to change the subject to all that went wrong in Christianity in the past
and all that goes wrong in the name of present-day Islam is excused

Depends which way you see it. The three Religions are intertwined in many ways and much more then people realise. They all know its teachings from the same roots. At some point they pulled out to their own paths so talking about one or the other still remains very relevant and comparisons would be pretty natural.

 

[Maleth]

I actually just learned about humanist in school. It was contrasted to religious people. That a humanist is someone who thinks humanity only needs its itself not God.

I was reacting to a comment made my Maleth where he seems to have been saying that Paul added the religious part to Jesus's story and other aspects to appeal to Romans and Greeks.

Its not my invention. Well known fact. Maybe something new you should learn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch

 

[bicicleur 2]

Depends which way you see it. The three Religions are intertwined in many ways and much more then people realise. They all know its teachings from the same roots. At some point they pulled out to their own paths so talking about one or the other still remains very relevant and comparisons would be pretty natural.

their may be some similarities in the 3 religions, there are some differences as well
moreover the thread was not about the history, it was about the present

for me, the biggest difference today is separation between state and religion, a principal which is still not accepted by many muslims worldwide

 

[Maleth]

their may be some similarities in the 3 religions, there are some differences as well
moreover the thread was not about the history, it was about the present

There are many differences indeed. The title of this tread is not very specific. Islam is the newest 'break away' so to speak....some 600 years after Christianity with Judaism being the first. You cannot discuss nobility (whatever that means) without talking about the past

'for me, the biggest difference today is separation between state and religion, a principal which is still not accepted by many muslims worldwide

I think there are eight countries that apply religious law as the law of the country and they are all Islamic, others have made some kind of separation. There are no traditional Christian countries that applies religious law and neither for any other religion. We all know that Israel is very secular and has never made the Torah the law of the country. If they did they would be mass stoning s every day

Purple is countries that rule according to Sharia and the interpretation various between them

 

[AgnusDei]

I agree with fire haired to a lesser extent when it comes to the origin of the New Testament.
As far as I am concerned, the New Testament is merely a collection of fables and an attempt by the authors to idealize their fictional demigod.
On the one hand , I would like to know what the contemporary Jewish and Roman historians thought of him, on the other hand I don't think such historical accounts exist.

 

[Maleth]

I agree with fire haired to a lesser extent when it comes to the origin of the New Testament.
As far as I am concerned, the New Testament is merely a collection of fables and an attempt by the authors to idealize their fictional demigod.
On the one hand , I would like to know what the contemporary Jewish and Roman historians thought of him, on the other hand I don't think such historical accounts exist.

If not mistaken firehaired is arguing to the contrary, that all that is written is pure fact with no political intentions