New member with questions (of course)

[Kurgan]

Hi all. I have been a "passive observer" for the past 2 years, as Eupedia's built-in registration intelligence considered me spam! I finally figured a work-around by registering through Facebook.

I just wanted to say "thank you" for all the excellent research that has been composed by so many of you, especially the established veterans. I believe the debate has helped to advance our collective knowledge, and without it, we'd still be foraging for nuts and living in caves.

I have been tested on FTDNA, and have learned that I belong to this group of people on the Polish Project page (Z16971+):

[TABLE="width: 769"]
[TR]
[TD]Kit[/TD]
[TD]Family Name[/TD]
[TD]Origins[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]296649[/TD]
[TD]Michal Volek (Gajary, Slovakia)[/TD]
[TD]Slovakia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]96474[/TD]
[TD]Loški Potok, Slovenia[/TD]
[TD]Slovenia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]256403[/TD]
[TD]Kiril Turkevich, b. c1725 d 1780[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]101827[/TD]
[TD]Michael Matusik, b.1871, Bezimes, Poland[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280968[/TD]
[TD]Grzegorz Jaskuła, ca 1720, Żywocin? Poland[/TD]
[TD]Poland[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

...AND under this category: 'I2a2 'Dinaric' Z16971+ (I-Z16971) CTS5966+ CTS10228+ also S17250+ Z16971+'
on the excellent I2a Project page, with the following people:

[TABLE="width: 769"]
[TR]
[TD]Kit[/TD]
[TD]Family Name[/TD]
[TD]Origins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2275[/TD]
[TD]Baca[/TD]
[TD]Josef Baca, b. 1859 Bordovice, Czech Republic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280194[/TD]
[TD]Shidakov[/TD]
[TD]Shidak, Karachay, North Caucasus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]296649[/TD]
[TD]Volek[/TD]
[TD]Michal Volek (Gajary, Slovakia)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]291803[/TD]
[TD]Kulchaev[/TD]
[TD]Kulchaev, Karachay[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]267765[/TD]
[TD]Batchaev[/TD]
[TD]Batcha, ataul Jandar, Karachay[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]333648[/TD]
[TD]Urusov[/TD]
[TD]Urus, ataul Islam, Karachay, North Caucasus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]211939[/TD]
[TD]Urusov[/TD]
[TD]Urus, Karachay[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N38227[/TD]
[TD]Feketekuty[/TD]
[TD]Mano b 1200, Halych (Galicia), now Galic, Ukraine[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]256403[/TD]
[TD]Turkevich[/TD]
[TD]Kiril Turkevich, b. c1725 d 1780[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280968[/TD]
[TD]Jaskuła[/TD]
[TD]Grzegorz Jaskuła, ca 1720, Żywocin? Poland[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N113632[/TD]
[TD]Kowallis[/TD]
[TD]Jacob Kowallis b. 1735[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

****

Can I safely assume that **majority consensus** is that I2 are the original Paleolithic-->Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, PRIOR to the advance of the Anatolian (middle eastern) farmers and IE migrants?

Based on the current grouping of Z16971+ people (North Caucasus?), can I also assume that my ancestors likely took refuge somewhere along the north Black Sea shoreline during LGM and then re-expanded back into central/eastern Europe (Slovakia, Ukraine)?

 

[LeBrok]

Welcome to Eupedia Kurgan. Sorry for the registration nightmare. We'll look into it.

 

[sparkey]

Can I safely assume that **majority consensus** is that I2 are the original Paleolithic-->Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, PRIOR to the advance of the Anatolian (middle eastern) farmers and IE migrants?

We're 100% sure that I2 was in Europe during the Mesolithic. Ancient samples from that time period from Sweden and Luxembourg turned up as I2, and a couple of them (one from Sweden and the one from Luxembourg) even turned out to be on the same branch of I2 as modern I2a-Dinaric. Diversity indicates that it was in Europe during the late Paleolithic as well, although we're still waiting on samples from that period.

I'm not sure I'd say they're the original Paleolithic-->Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, because that sort of implies that they're the only ones, and we do know of at least one other haplogroup present in Europe during the Mesolithic, C-V20.

Based on the current grouping of Z16971+ people (North Caucasus?), can I also assume that my ancestors likely took refuge somewhere along the north Black Sea shoreline during LGM and then re-expanded back into central/eastern Europe (Slovakia, Ukraine)?

No, that's not a good assumption. Z16971 is very young (think historical period) and on a branch of I2 associated with Eastern European expansions, not Caucasian expansions. That means that the Caucasians who carry it are likely Slavs on their paternal line. Rather, you'll need to look at the distributions of the closest relatives of I2a-Din, which turn out to be I2a-Disles, I2a-Isles, and the ancient samples from Sweden and Luxembourg. The first two are largely northwestern European clades, and the ancient samples, of course, are from northwest of where your clade is now distributed. That means that your group is the geographic outlier, indicating that at some point, the ancestral carrier lived in western or central Europe. Does that make the Franco-Iberian refuge a better guess than the Black Sea refuge? I think so. But I admit we don't have proof of LGM locations yet.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Based on the current grouping of Z16971+ people (North Caucasus?), can I also assume that my ancestors likely took refuge somewhere along the north Black Sea shoreline during LGM and then re-expanded back into central/eastern Europe (Slovakia, Ukraine)?

as far as I know, there was no LGM refuge north of the black sea
the earliest post-LGM findings north of the black sea were 'mammoth-dwellings' which were first dated to the late LGM but they are now redated to 15000 years ago , well after LGM

as for I2 and your subclade , I agree with what sparkey just told

 

[FrankN]

I have been tested on FTDNA, and have learned that I belong to this group of people on the Polish Project page (Z16971+):

[TABLE="width: 769"]
[TR]
[TD]Kit
[/TD]
[TD]Family Name
[/TD]
[TD]Origins
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]296649
[/TD]
[TD]Michal Volek (Gajary, Slovakia)
[/TD]
[TD]Slovakia
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]96474
[/TD]
[TD]Loški Potok, Slovenia
[/TD]
[TD]Slovenia
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]256403
[/TD]
[TD]Kiril Turkevich, b. c1725 d 1780
[/TD]
[TD]Ukraine
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]101827
[/TD]
[TD]Michael Matusik, b.1871, Bezimes, Poland
[/TD]
[TD]Poland
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280968
[/TD]
[TD]Grzegorz Jaskuła, ca 1720, Żywocin? Poland
[/TD]
[TD]Poland
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

...AND under this category: 'I2a2 'Dinaric' Z16971+ (I-Z16971) CTS5966+ CTS10228+ also S17250+ Z16971+'
on the excellent I2a Project page, with the following people:

[TABLE="width: 769"]
[TR]
[TD]Kit
[/TD]
[TD]Family Name
[/TD]
[TD]Origins
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2275
[/TD]
[TD]Baca
[/TD]
[TD]Josef Baca, b. 1859 Bordovice, Czech Republic
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280194
[/TD]
[TD]Shidakov
[/TD]
[TD]Shidak, Karachay, North Caucasus
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]296649
[/TD]
[TD]Volek
[/TD]
[TD]Michal Volek (Gajary, Slovakia)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]291803
[/TD]
[TD]Kulchaev
[/TD]
[TD]Kulchaev, Karachay
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]267765
[/TD]
[TD]Batchaev
[/TD]
[TD]Batcha, ataul Jandar, Karachay
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]333648
[/TD]
[TD]Urusov
[/TD]
[TD]Urus, ataul Islam, Karachay, North Caucasus
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]211939
[/TD]
[TD]Urusov
[/TD]
[TD]Urus, Karachay
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N38227
[/TD]
[TD]Feketekuty
[/TD]
[TD]Mano b 1200, Halych (Galicia), now Galic, Ukraine
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]256403
[/TD]
[TD]Turkevich
[/TD]
[TD]Kiril Turkevich, b. c1725 d 1780
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]280968
[/TD]
[TD]Jaskuła
[/TD]
[TD]Grzegorz Jaskuła, ca 1720, Żywocin? Poland
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N113632
[/TD]
[TD]Kowallis
[/TD]
[TD]Jacob Kowallis b. 1735
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

****

Can I safely assume that **majority consensus** is that I2 are the original Paleolithic-->Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, PRIOR to the advance of the Anatolian (middle eastern) farmers and IE migrants?

Based on the current grouping of Z16971+ people (North Caucasus?), can I also assume that my ancestors likely took refuge somewhere along the north Black Sea shoreline during LGM and then re-expanded back into central/eastern Europe (Slovakia, Ukraine)?

A look at the list of people you share ancestry with, and especially the strong Karachay cluster, suggests that the migrations of the Alans during the 4th/5th century AD (see Wikipedia map below) deserve consideration as well:

Even better candidates may be the Khalysians/ Khwalys and Kabars, both member tribes of the Magyar federation, which possibly were of Muslim faith, originated in the North Caucasus (Kabardino-Balkaria), and joined the 10th century Magyar expansion into the Carpathian basin. The relation is supported by location names such as Halych and Gajary, the family name Kowallis, and the fact that some of the ancestry was apparently Turkic/ Muslim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalyzians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabar

 

[Kurgan]

We're 100% sure that I2 was in Europe during the Mesolithic. Ancient samples from that time period from Sweden and Luxembourg turned up as I2, and a couple of them (one from Sweden and the one from Luxembourg) even turned out to be on the same branch of I2 as modern I2a-Dinaric. Diversity indicates that it was in Europe during the late Paleolithic as well, although we're still waiting on samples from that period.

I'm not sure I'd say they're the original Paleolithic-->Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, because that sort of implies that they're the only ones, and we do know of at least one other haplogroup present in Europe during the Mesolithic, C-V20.



No, that's not a good assumption. Z16971 is very young (think historical period) and on a branch of I2 associated with Eastern European expansions, not Caucasian expansions. That means that the Caucasians who carry it are likely Slavs on their paternal line. Rather, you'll need to look at the distributions of the closest relatives of I2a-Din, which turn out to be I2a-Disles, I2a-Isles, and the ancient samples from Sweden and Luxembourg. The first two are largely northwestern European clades, and the ancient samples, of course, are from northwest of where your clade is now distributed. That means that your group is the geographic outlier, indicating that at some point, the ancestral carrier lived in western or central Europe. Does that make the Franco-Iberian refuge a better guess than the Black Sea refuge? I think so. But I admit we don't have proof of LGM locations yet.

Thank you. This is extremely helpful and well articulated (and appreciated!). I am very new to this forum of research, but have an open mind.

However, just to be clear, my young clade appears to distributed between Poland, Ukraine, North Caucasus, and the territory south of the Carpathians in what is now Slovakia. That puts the ancestors of my clade within the geographic realm of a possible Black Sea shoreline refuge, more so than a Franco-Iberian refugea.

 

[Kurgan]

A look at the list of people you share ancestry with, and especially the strong Karachay cluster, suggests that the migrations of the Alans during the 4th/5th century AD (see Wikipedia map below) deserve consideration as well:


Even better candidates may be the Khalysians/ Khwalys and Kabars, both member tribes of the Magyar federation, which possibly were of Muslim faith, originated in the North Caucasus (Kabardino-Balkaria), and joined the 10th century Magyar expansion into the Carpathian basin. The relation is supported by location names such as Halych and Gajary, the family name Kowallis, and the fact that some of the ancestry was apparently Turkic/ Muslim.

This is an interesting argument, and one that I wish to further research!

 

[sparkey]

However, just to be clear, my young clade appears to distributed between Poland, Ukraine, North Caucasus, and the territory south of the Carpathians in what is now Slovakia. That puts the ancestors of my clade within the geographic realm of a possible Black Sea shoreline refuge, more so than a Franco-Iberian refugea.

I don't get it, if you agree that it is so young, then why are we talking about refugia? Refugia were at the LGM, 18,000 or so years ago. Your clade is less than 2,500 years old though (I haven't dated it exactly but that's a typical estimate for its parent, I2a-Din), meaning that it wouldn't have been at any refuge. So if we're talking about your clade, we're going to be talking about migrations like the Slavic expansion and whatnot, not expansion from a refuge.

Take a look at Nordtvedt's tree, see "Tree and Map for Hg I" here. At 18,000 years ago, you'll see that your paternal ancestor hadn't yet differentiated from the I2a-Din outliers, I2a-Disles, I2a-L161-Isles, or the branches of the ancient samples (Loschbour/Motala). So when talking about the LGM refuge for your lineage, we should be talking about the common origin of all of these later branches.

 

[Kurgan]

Yes, I failed to communicate effectively when I said "ancestors of my clade". I did mean common origin (pat ancestor).

 

[Kurgan]

OK... I feel I need another crack at what I am trying to convey. My newness shows, as does, perhaps, my logic.

This is how I interpret my "origins":

My understanding is that I2 originated during the Late Paleolithic some 22,000 years ago.

The LGM refugium of origin for I2 is still up for scholarly debate (around here it seems to be quite lively), but likely candidates are:

--Franco-Iberian refuge
--Italian peninsula
--Balkan peninsula
--Ukrainian LGM refuge (north/northwest Black Sea shoreline area)
--Anatolia
--(North) Caucasus

Did I miss anything?

It now appears likely that I2 hunter-gatherers, and others that likely died out, originated in Europe and covered a vast area, but were“pushed back” into warmer climate "refugium" during the last glacial episode. When the glaciers finally receded some 20,000-11500 years ago, these I2 hunter-gatherers re-expanded from their respective LGM refuge and re-colonized most of western, central and eastern Europe. Each of these I2 hunter-gather groups, "I gather", left their respective LGM refugium with unique mutations to "call their own".

[one point I would like to make is that if the North American Indians and the Inuit can survive and thrive in inhospitable climates, why couldn't the original European I2 hunter-gatherers? ... but I digress.]

It would appear that these I2 hunter-gatherers came into contact with, and were ultimately absorbed by, Neolithic farmers—Levant/Anatolian agriculturalists that entered Europe via a few currently known land/sea migratory paths (and there were likely many more routes that have yet to be revealed/learned). One established path took these Neolithic farmers to the south Carpathian region, and then into the Ukraine. In the end, this Ukrainian region’s indigenous I2 (P-37.2) hunter-gatherers ultimately became farmers.

One resulting and very large “Slavic” subclade, M-423 (and it’s associated subclade, L-621), is very likely associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE).

Why? Because we know that M423-L621 is found in high concentrations in northeast Romania, Moldova, and central Ukraine, and this combined area aligns fairly well with the maximum geographic extent of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture before it was absorbed (and spread) by the IE Corded Ware culture, according to Maciamo and others.

Given that my very young subclade, I-Z16971, is very possibly a late (~2500-3000 year old) branch of the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian (CT) culture, and given that the CT culture may have been likely formed from the ancestors of the I2 hunter-gatherers that re-expanded from their respective LGM refugium, would the Ukrainian LGM refugium not be a more logical "homeland" for I2 that ultimately became: P-37.2-->M-423-->L-621-->I-Z16971+ ?

Perhaps I can answer my own question by saying that there were many thousands of years between early I2 and P-37 for these hunter-gatherer-->farmers to have migrated to and from all corners of Europe, picking up and mixing with other cultures along the way?

Hmmm, the Alans and peoples of North Caucasus really intriques me

 

[sparkey]

My understanding is that I2 originated during the Late Paleolithic some 22,000 years ago.

With you so far.

The LGM refugium of origin for I2 is still up for scholarly debate (around here it seems to be quite lively), but likely candidates are:

--Franco-Iberian refuge
--Italian peninsula
--Balkan peninsula
--Ukrainian LGM refuge (north/northwest Black Sea shoreline area)
--Anatolia
--(North) Caucasus

Did I miss anything?

That's a good list. It would make an interesting poll.

It now appears likely that I2 hunter-gatherers, and others that likely died out, originated in Europe and covered a vast area, but were“pushed back” into warmer climate "refugium" during the last glacial episode. When the glaciers finally receded some 20,000-11500 years ago, these I2 hunter-gatherers re-expanded from their respective LGM refuge and re-colonized most of western, central and eastern Europe. Each of these I2 hunter-gather groups, "I gather", left their respective LGM refugium with unique mutations to "call their own".

Yup. Although it's tough to say if I2 was all at one refuge, or spread out over multiple refugia. I would hazard a guess of 2 refugia for all of I2, and probably for all of I as well.

It would appear that these I2 hunter-gatherers came into contact with, and were ultimately absorbed by, Neolithic farmers—Levant/Anatolian agriculturalists that entered Europe via a few currently known land/sea migratory paths (and there were likely many more routes that have yet to be revealed/learned). One established path took these Neolithic farmers to the south Carpathian region, and then into the Ukraine. In the end, this Ukrainian region’s indigenous I2 (P-37.2) hunter-gatherers ultimately became farmers.

It's weird that we don't see an east-to-west cline of I2 indicating that I2 became farmers at the moment the Neolithic farmers entered Europe, though. The apparently earliest expanding clade, I2a-M26, is also probably the most Western of surviving clades. It's like the Eastern European I2 didn't catch onto farming until later... or perhaps I2 wasn't Eastern European to begin with. It's tough to say which because Eastern European I2 is so bottlenecked compared to Western and Central European I2.

One resulting and very large “Slavic” subclade, M-423 (and it’s associated subclade, L-621), is very likely associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE).

I really wouldn't say "very likely." Note that I2a-Din's split with I2a-Disles is dated to within the time period of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. But I2a-Disles is located nowhere near the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture! Sure, I2a-Disles could descend from a group from that culture that migrated to the northwest, but the next closest group to both I2a-Disles and I2a-Din is I2a-Isles. I2a-Isles is much closer to I2a-Disles in distribution, giving the impression that I2a-Din is the one that moved.

Why? Because we know that M423-L621 is found in high concentrations in northeast Romania, Moldova, and central Ukraine, and this combined area aligns fairly well with the maximum geographic extent of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture before it was absorbed (and spread) by the IE Corded Ware culture, according to Maciamo and others.

I'd suggest ignoring high modern concentrations and focusing on phylogeny to determine ancient distribution.

Given that my very young subclade, I-Z16971, is very possibly a late (~2500-3000 year old) branch of the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian (CT) culture, and given that the CT culture may have been likely formed from the ancestors of the I2 hunter-gatherers that re-expanded from their respective LGM refugium, would the Ukrainian LGM refugium not be a more logical "homeland" for I2 that ultimately became: P-37.2-->M-423-->L-621-->I-Z16971+ ?

I don't think so, because I2a-L621 as a whole is only one branch of the descendants of an ancestor who lived back when there were LGM refugia. The other known ones are I2-L161 (Northwestern Europe) and the extinct branches of the ancient samples (found in North and Northwestern Europe). Add to that the fact that I2a-L621 itself has a phylogeny split between Central/Eastern and Northwestern Europe, and it just looks a lot like the one closest to the Ukraine refuge, I2a-Din, is the outlier.

Perhaps I can answer my own question by saying that there were many thousands of years between early I2 and P-37 for these hunter-gatherer-->farmers to have migrated to and from all corners of Europe, picking up and mixing with other cultures along the way?

That's a good point, which helps show why it's difficult to say much about ancient distributions based on modern samples. I think that we're not completely lost, though, especially considering that we tend to find clades separated by thousands of years still clustering closest to their closest relatives most of the time. (I2a-Din is actually an interesting exception to that, clustering somewhat far from its closest relatives.)

 

[FrankN]

I can follow your line of thought, sparkey, and it makes a lot of sense, especially if the Sardinian I2a is also considered. That could actually point to a "lower Rhone" refuge, from where spreading started towards the Balkans, the British Isles, and Northern Europe. The "island" or at least maritime character of most I2a populations is anyway quite remarkable. The problem here is the failure to explain the strong I2a presence among Kurds, and around Southern Belarus. The latter might be a reminiscent of the "Mesolithic Gotland" I2a, if TMRA fits here (which I don't know, clarification is appreciated). But the Kurds? I don't buy the "traces of Celtic migration into Galatia" theory, that should have resulted in a peak in west-central rather than eastern Anatolia.

Moreover, there is that even more distant I2b cousin, which shares the secondary concentration peak in/ around Bessarabia with I2a. And a look at I2b concentrations, ranging from central Germany via Northern Sweden to the Chuvash on the middle Volga, and minor concentrations in Central Greece, is quite suggestive of a spread from a Black Sea refuge.
Plus, we have the even more obscure I2c, which, as I have learnt from you, is found along the Eastern Mediterranean coasts, among Georgian and Armenian medieval nobility, East European Jews, and on the British Isles, and has a diversity peak on the central Rhine.

In combination, the pattern is wild but looks extremely ancient, which is at odds with many of the quite young split points.

@Kurgan: North European Mesolithic I2a finds typically go together with yDNA U5b. While a little bit of U5b has been found with early Central European farmers, it only starts to appear in sizeable quantities among Neolithic populations with the late 3rd millennium Bernburg culture on the middle Elbe. As long as we don't have Neolithic yDNA, I think it is fair to assume that I2a only became absorbed during the late Chalcolithic / early Bronze Age. This, however, doesn't relate to "Sardinian" I2a, which appears to have become neolithicised much earlier (though I tend to see them rather as "early Mediterranean traders" than as early farmers).

 

[Kurgan]

Been away for awhile. Thank you for the responses and clarification points. An interesting topic, and one that I won't stop researching.

 

[motzart]

I disagree with this theory that our current distributions of Y DNA I2 are representative of paleo/mesolithic continuity in an area resulting from LGM refugium. I do not doubt that I2 probably existed in some LGM refugium in Europe, however modern day distributions don't match the expansion model.