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Italian dialects or languages?

Auld Reekie

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My Italian language teacher always stood firm on this issue but now I want to hear what people on this forum think: Do the people of Italy speak different dialects or languages? When I visit Italy I ask this question and it's always a quick answer; dialect not language. It becomes an argument until it unravels itself at the heart of Italian politics, ancient regional divides and even the risorgimento. I'm not including German, Catalan, French Provence, Croatian, Albanian and Greek that have firm roots in Italy but what is thought of as an Italian language/dialect. In places like Macedonia and Bulgaria they speak separate languages but really they understand each other more or less, Norwegians have a similar vocabulary to Danes but pronunciation is more like Swedes whose words have different meaning. I've met a Roman who said he can't understand people from Calabria, Apulia, Basilicata and especially Sicily. Is the issue political? I'd like to know what everybody's view is on this.
 
My Italian language teacher always stood firm on this issue but now I want to hear what people on this forum think: Do the people of Italy speak different dialects or languages? When I visit Italy I ask this question and it's always a quick answer; dialect not language. It becomes an argument until it unravels itself at the heart of Italian politics, ancient regional divides and even the risorgimento. I'm not including German, Catalan, French Provence, Croatian, Albanian and Greek that have firm roots in Italy but what is thought of as an Italian language/dialect. In places like Macedonia and Bulgaria they speak separate languages but really they understand each other more or less, Norwegians have a similar vocabulary to Danes but pronunciation is more like Swedes whose words have different meaning. I've met a Roman who said he can't understand people from Calabria, Apulia, Basilicata and especially Sicily. Is the issue political? I'd like to know what everybody's view is on this.

You would think that linguists should be able to tell us precisely, but I think that if you were to ask three linguists you might get three different answers. They can't even agree where to put the precise geographic/linguistic divide between the Gallo-Italic "languages" and the rest of them.(Ed. Is it at La Spezia, or further south near Massa?) I know that mutual intelligibility is one criterion. It's always seemed to me, however, that it depends what you "mean" by intelligibility. How intelligible do they have to be for classification as "dialects" and not "languages"?

I think it's basically a continuum, and the dividing lines can be pretty arbitrary. I, like many Italians, was grateful that the film Gomorrah was released with "Italian" subtitles. That doesn't mean I wasn't able to follow a lot of it. It's just that it takes too much concentration when people speak in "dialects" with which I'm not that familiar. I also always miss a certain portion of the "sense" of the conversation because of the pronunciation or the fact that certain words are different. Ed. I guess my point is that it's not like listening to Russian for me, for example. It's also more intelligible than Spanish, although I could get the general sense of conversations in Spanish even before I studied it in school. Spoken French was less intelligible, although written French was very comprehensible. So, are all these "languages" really just corrupted dialects of Latin because there is some intelligibility between them? I don't know. As I said, where do you draw the line?

Then, as you say, there is the question of politics. People in Italy who want more political autonomy for their regions will call their regional speech a "language" rather than a dialect because it bolsters their political claims. People who are dedicated to the idea of an Italian nation state will call them all dialects. I don't see that it much matters what you call them.

The history of the development of the "standard" Italian language is pretty clear. All this talk about the fact that Italian didn't exist before the Risorgimento is just incorrect in my opinion, and a re-writing of history. What was to become the "Italian" language taught in all Italian schools was first codified by Dante in the early 14th century when he wrote the Commedia in his native Florentine. It was read throughout Italy, and became the "canonical standard" among all educated Italians, in use for correspondence, business, and literature. Later, Manzoni would place a gloss on it with his Milanese, although he would say that he had gone to Firenze to "purify" his language by bathing it in the waters of the Arno. Now, had the high culture of Sicily continued to develop, "Sicilian" might have become the 'standard'. However, history didn't turn out that way.

The operative word here is education, because at the same time it's true that the majority of the population of the peninsula and islands which make up the Italian nation state didn't speak standard Italian until very late because they were illiterate or at least poorly educated, and many, especially in the south, didn't speak it until after the advent of television. So, there are whole diaspora populations who don't really speak "Italian" at all, because the emigrants didn't speak it, and, in fact, were illiterate even in their "dialects".

Class is another factor. In most of Italy, "dialects" were the language of the lower, uneducated classes. For much of Italian history speaking only them relegated you to a lower class, as did having too strong a "regional" accent. I think England may have been much the same.

Regardless, in many parts of Italy it's becoming rather academic what you call them, because they are spoken much less frequently, and when spoken at all, only in "home" situations, never at work or in more "formal" milieus. You can't conduct business in them, or have academic conversations in them because, for one thing, the vocabulary just doesn't exist. This is true even in areas like Sicily, or the Veneto, where it has political connotations. I hear frequently from older Sicilian or Neapolitan Americans that when they go back to search for their "roots", they find that the young speak only a very truncated version of the old dialects, and even then only in informal situations. You just need to look at the Unesco study of the Italian "languages": Lombard, Ligurian, Emilian, Piemontese, Friulan, Sardinian, among others, are "endangered"; Sicilian, Campanian, and Venetian are "vulnerable".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Italy
 
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My Italian language teacher always stood firm on this issue but now I want to hear what people on this forum think: Do the people of Italy speak different dialects or languages? When I visit Italy I ask this question and it's always a quick answer; dialect not language. It becomes an argument until it unravels itself at the heart of Italian politics, ancient regional divides and even the risorgimento. I'm not including German, Catalan, French Provence, Croatian, Albanian and Greek that have firm roots in Italy but what is thought of as an Italian language/dialect. In places like Macedonia and Bulgaria they speak separate languages but really they understand each other more or less, Norwegians have a similar vocabulary to Danes but pronunciation is more like Swedes whose words have different meaning. I've met a Roman who said he can't understand people from Calabria, Apulia, Basilicata and especially Sicily. Is the issue political? I'd like to know what everybody's view is on this.

Standard Italian is a dialect of regional Italian languages which in turn are dialects of Latin and the regional area they belonged to ..........only the latin brought these languages somewhat together initially. Some languages are completley different and have very little to do with italian ie, Friulian, Venetian, Sardinian, Sicilian to name some

Logical proof is that in Dante's books he noted all regional languages , gave explanations on what was good and bad in them, gave a history on them, BEFORE he commenced to put together the language called Italian.

Also, when Italy formed in 1861 and even though Dante had long died 500 years earlier, only 600,000 of 22 million Italians spoke or knew Italian ........about 3%. Clearly a language which did not originate from a community ..............more like a fabricated language like what Dante originated.

Dante's idea was to create a language for the merchant/artisan class, not for the poor class and the rich class ( nobles/particians) spoke latin to each other.

IMO, true pure standard Italian is spoken in southern Tuscany, around Siena area. All other parts of Italy throw in their regional language words here and there.

Also, note , some of Dante's original word meanings have been changed over time, example Bordello in Dante books means uproar/noisy exactly the same as it means today in Northern italy, but in southern Italy it means a brothel ..............a brothel in venetian is a casin , a place where cortesans and gamblers associated at ..........most likely the term Casino came from this word ( gambling haven ). My parents and relatives and most I know in the north of Italy still use the term bordello for noisy
 
@AuldReekie,
I should have provided some citations so that you can check some of the information for yourself, especially as to the history and development of the language. There's a lot of misinformation out there. There are tomes written about the subject in Italian, but in case that is a little intimidating at this point, you might try Diane Hales' La Bella Lingua. She's spent years studying Italian and the history of the Italian language. She even braved an interview with the Accademia della Crusca, the guardians and arbiters of the Italian language, an enterprise that would make most Italians shake in their Gucci loafers. Despite all that, it's a very readable and engaging book that mixes in a lot of cultural information as well.
http://www.amazon.com/La-Bella-Lingua-Enchanting-Language/dp/0767927702

You can easily borrow it from a library.
 
As a short synopsis, this Wiki entry is also not bad...

During the long period of the evolution of Italian, many dialects sprang up... Even the earliest popular Italian documents, produced in the 10th century, are dialectal in language, and during the following three centuries Italian writers wrote in their native dialects, producing a number of competing regional schools of literature. [including the very important poetic Sicilian school]

During the 14th century the Tuscan dialect began to predominate because of the central position of Tuscany in Italy, and because of the aggressive commerce of its most important city, Florence. Moreover, of all the Italian dialects, Tuscan departs least in morphology and phonology from classical Latin, and it therefore harmonizes best with the Italian traditions of Latin culture. Finally, Florentine culture produced the three literary artists who best summarized Italian thought and feeling of the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. [Petrarch, Dante, and Boccaccio]

Grammarians during the 15th and the 16th centuries attempted to confer upon the pronunciation, syntax, and vocabulary of 14th-century Tuscan the status of a central and classical Italian speech. Eventually this classicism, which might have made Italian another dead language, was widened to include the organic changes inevitable in a living tongue.

In the dictionaries and publications of the Accademia della Crusca, founded in 1583, which was accepted by Italians as authoritative in Italian linguistic matters, compromises between classical purism and living Tuscan usage were successfully effected. The most important literary event of the 16th century did not actually take place in Florence. In 1525 the Venetian Pietro Bembo (1470-1547) set out his proposals (Prose della volgar lingua - 1525) for a standardized language and style: Petrarca and Boccaccio were his models and thus became the modern classics.

In fact, the first edition of an official Italian vocabulary, published in 1612 by the Accademia della Crusca, was built on the basis of the following Florentine works: “Divina Commedia” by Dante, “Decameron” by Bocaccio and “Canzionere” by Petrarca. Today, Toscano is still considered the "cleanest" of all Italian dialects as it is the most similar to the original or classical Latin.

This university publication also provides some detail:

The 1300s arguably had the most profound influence on the development and proliferation of the vernacular, for this was the period of the three great Italian writers: Dante, Petrarch, and Boccaccio... They championed, as did Chaucer for the Middle English, the validity of the vernacular as a literary language. They, and most especially Dante, proved the capabilities of the vernacular. They desired to bring knowledge and virture to a wider audience. It is in this period that analogical leveling begins to apply itself most heavily to the plurals of the Tuscan dialect (the dialect of these writers).
The 1400s slowed the rising of the Tuscan vernacular, however, as Europe experienced a great humanistic influence. This social current lead men to admire and imitate the writers of the Antiquities, which meant a resurgence of Latin. The question was still on the minds of the people and scholars, as there was a lack of linguistic uniformity. Then, the 1500s and 1600s saw a renewal of the Italian language. While Latin survived in the Universities and in medicine, the smaller, more specialized academies, (which taught things such as poetry and mathematics), used the vernacular. Great works began to be formally translated and published in Italian.
http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/Italian2.html

In terms of the geography, this is the best map I've seen of the historical boundaries of the "dialects"/and or "languages" of Italy. My own area is like The Three Faces of Eve. Within one tiny area, the peasants spoke an Emilian dialect, a Tuscan dialect, and Spezzino, a sort of Emilian/Ligurian dialect.
italian-dialects.jpg
 
..........
Class is another factor. In most of Italy, "dialects" were the language of the lower, uneducated classes. For much of Italian history speaking only them relegated you to a lower class, as did having too strong a "regional" accent. I think England may have been much the same.

.........

Yes, class is very important in England and language is the main identifier, so the children of the local gentry are taught not to speak the local dialect or to speak with the local accent. Eaton and Oxford carefully shape the vowels of those who are educated in such places, but it starts much earlier, in the home.
 
Standard Italian is a dialect of regional Italian languages which in turn are dialects of Latin and the regional area they belonged to ..........only the latin brought these languages somewhat together initially. Some languages are completley different and have very little to do with italian ie, Friulian, Venetian, Sardinian, Sicilian to name some

Logical proof is that in Dante's books he noted all regional languages , gave explanations on what was good and bad in them, gave a history on them, BEFORE he commenced to put together the language called Italian.

Also, when Italy formed in 1861 and even though Dante had long died 500 years earlier, only 600,000 of 22 million Italians spoke or knew Italian ........about 3%. Clearly a language which did not originate from a community ..............more like a fabricated language like what Dante originated.

Dante's idea was to create a language for the merchant/artisan class, not for the poor class and the rich class ( nobles/particians) spoke latin to each other.

IMO, true pure standard Italian is spoken in southern Tuscany, around Siena area. All other parts of Italy throw in their regional language words here and there.

Also, note , some of Dante's original word meanings have been changed over time, example Bordello in Dante books means uproar/noisy exactly the same as it means today in Northern italy, but in southern Italy it means a brothel ..............a brothel in venetian is a casin , a place where cortesans and gamblers associated at ..........most likely the term Casino came from this word ( gambling haven ). My parents and relatives and most I know in the north of Italy still use the term bordello for noisy

Lots of Venetian words stuck in our local dialects.

Kažin-brothel
 
Lots of Venetian words stuck in our local dialects.

Kažin-brothel

originally wrote as Caxin , then Cazin in the 17th century, and now Casin ............the X, Z and S are still pronounced as a zed sound
 
@auld Reekie

try these books they will give you everything you need

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=bordello&f=false

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=_F4C4AXtLFIC&pg=PA12&dq=dante+regional+languages+venetian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jI-PU_ydD4izkgX8yoHYAw&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=dante%20regional%20languages%20venetian&f=false


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia–Rimini_Line

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...aviewer/File:Romance-lg-classification-en.png

The issue is that when Italy formed, the King wanted Piemontese to be the Italian language, the Church wanted Latin and Rome to be the capital ( IIRC it was Florence at the time ) , Naples wanted their language as they stated they where the only true Italians from ancient times ...............so Dante's "south Tuscan" was chosen .......or as Italians say........Toscano co lengoa Romana.( Tuscan with a Roman tongue) . It was not Florentine because they cannot pronounce their C properly and it was not Lucchese ( NW tuscany)
 
Thank for the recommendations! Actually, I've read In Pursuit of Italy by David Gilmour. I bought it the first day it came out and made a Pink Floyd reference to the young cashier which completely flew over her head. Great read by the way.
 
Thanks I'm going to read it as soon as possible!
 
I thought I posted replies to individual people on book recommendations but I guess my coffee hasn't reached my brain yet. On topics of books, what book best describes Italy, it's people, soul, attitude etc.? I like Luigi Barzini The Italian's.
 
Yes, class is very important in England and language is the main identifier, so the children of the local gentry are taught not to speak the local dialect or to speak with the local accent. Eaton and Oxford carefully shape the vowels of those who are educated in such places, but it starts much earlier, in the home.


It's been my impression that English society is more stratified and class conscious than Italian society, although since I've never lived in England, I may very well be wrong.

What I do know is that in Italy, in areas which industrialized early and instituted mandatory education early, people interested in educating themselves and their children and climbing the social ladder through education were very conscious of the fact that fluency in standard Italian was a very necessary accomplishment for school, work, and one's position in society. During the fascist era it also became a political necessity.

My father, who prided himself on his facility with standard Italian, and his mastery of the great Italian classics, including, of course, Dante, and who had great hopes for his children's futures, forbade anyone to speak any dialect to us or even in front of us, including the Emilian dialect of his home villages. My poor mother and her childhood friends would have to switch as soon as I came into the room. To people of his turn of mind, speaking dialect labelled you a "terrone", a very denigrating term meaning that you are a peasant.

He was very proud of the fact that I was universally praised for the "pureness" of my Italian. He also believed it would be of great help in school; Italian courses are notoriously difficult and many students wind up "bocciati" or failing the subject and having to repeat it. There's no "social promotion" in the great lycee. This is a concern even today for the upper middle classes. I personally think that one of the failings of Italian education is that the English language teaching is appalling. The situation isn't helped by the fact that Italians are very resistant to watching English language films without subtitles, so they are all dubbed. I've tried to persuade friends and family to get English speaking au pairs, but the response in many cases is that they're afraid their Italian will suffer. Thankfully, that attitude is changing a bit, as it should.

Being a typically ungrateful child, and a romantic, I sometimes wish I had learned to speak it a little. It also creates a bit of a social gulf with the old country people, which is not something I ever wanted. (I did learn to at least understand the dialect of the village where I was born, as even he couldn't dictate to everyone with whom I came into contact!
smile.gif
)
 
I thought I posted replies to individual people on book recommendations but I guess my coffee hasn't reached my brain yet. On topics of books, what book best describes Italy, it's people, soul, attitude etc.? I like Luigi Barzini The Italian's.

I think the Gilmour book title already best describes it - its Regions and their Peoples;
And as Sile pointed out Italy was only created in 1861/66 and thus there are the Venetian people, the Tuscan people, the Sardinian people and so on; reading books specific to these regions is the proper insight; This goes for all European countries that have a young 'unified' history and strong regional diversities (extent being specific to each country however);
 
It's been my impression that English society is more stratified and class conscious than Italian society, although since I've never lived in England, I may very well be wrong.

What I do know is that in Italy, in areas which industrialized early and instituted mandatory education early, people interested in educating themselves and their children and climbing the social ladder through education were very conscious of the fact that fluency in standard Italian was a very necessary accomplishment for school, work, and one's position in society. During the fascist era it also became a political necessity.

My father, who prided himself on his facility with standard Italian, and his mastery of the great Italian classics, including, of course, Dante, and who had great hopes for his children's futures, forbade anyone to speak any dialect to us or even in front of us, including the Emilian dialect of his home villages. My poor mother and her childhood friends would have to switch as soon as I came into the room. To people of his turn of mind, speaking dialect labelled you a "terrone", a very denigrating term meaning that you are a peasant.

He was very proud of the fact that I was universally praised for the "pureness" of my Italian. He also believed it would be of great help in school; Italian courses are notoriously difficult and many students wind up "bocciati" or failing the subject and having to repeat it. There's no "social promotion" in the great lycee. This is a concern even today for the upper middle classes. I personally think that one of the failings of Italian education is that the English language teaching is appalling. The situation isn't helped by the fact that Italians are very resistant to watching English language films without subtitles, so they are all dubbed. I've tried to persuade friends and family to get English speaking au pairs, but the response in many cases is that they're afraid their Italian will suffer. Thankfully, that attitude is changing a bit, as it should.

Being a typically ungrateful child, and a romantic, I sometimes wish I had learned to speak it a little. It also creates a bit of a social gulf with the old country people, which is not something I ever wanted. (I did learn to at least understand the dialect of the village where I was born, as even he couldn't dictate to everyone with whom I came into contact!
smile.gif
)

I don't think it's that different in England. If you want to go to university and get a good paying white collar job, you have to learn how to speak BBC English. Speaking in dialect or speaking with a local accent is considered "common", and will limit your economic opportunities. However, the locals who don't want to do anything other than work at a blue collar job and hang out at the local pub pride themselves on their dialect. A friend of mine married an Englishman who only learned how to talk standard English after he emigrated to Canada and realized that nobody could understand his Yorkshire dialect. When he took her back home to visit his friends, they made fun of him for speaking "posh", and he soon reverted to the local dialect, which she found to be totally incomprehensible.
 
originally wrote as Caxin , then Cazin in the 17th century, and now Casin ............the X, Z and S are still pronounced as a zed sound

yeah but we have tendency to skew words a bit, so they sound better to us.

ž like in kažin, is pronounced hmm, zh, like a sound you often hear in Protugese, like for instance 'g' in 'mirage'

But yea, your S like in German sounds like z, for instance casa(house), sounds like would be written as 'kaza' in our language, our 'c' is like tz, in Ritz for instance, or in German that sound would be written as z
 
I don't think it's that different in England. If you want to go to university and get a good paying white collar job, you have to learn how to speak BBC English. Speaking in dialect or speaking with a local accent is considered "common", and will limit your economic opportunities. However, the locals who don't want to do anything other than work at a blue collar job and hang out at the local pub pride themselves on their dialect. A friend of mine married an Englishman who only learned how to talk standard English after he emigrated to Canada and realized that nobody could understand his Yorkshire dialect. When he took her back home to visit his friends, they made fun of him for speaking "posh", and he soon reverted to the local dialect, which she found to be totally incomprehensible.

I think that's exactly the way that it works. It's in large measure a function of education and class even in the areas where they transitioned late to industry and literacy.

You can find absolutely everything on the internet.

The use of Italian and dialect as a politeness strategy:
https://linguistics.stonybrook.edu/files/undergrad_theses/romanello.pdf

The study's results suffer from the fact that the participants were all Italian-Americans, a good portion of whom were not even born in Italy, and most of whom are presumably southern Italians, but there are good references to general linguistic studies on actual Italian usage.

"Standard Italian is considered to be the language of prestige while the "dialects" are considered to be inferior in status...While these dialects may be linguistically characterized as distinct languages, once Italian was established as the standard, the dialects came to be considered inferior to Italian. Until recently, dialects were considered to represent backwardness, and speaking a dialect inhibited social and economic success. For this reason, many parents discouraged their children from speaking dialect (Bonomi et al. 2003:22)"

And this is interesting as well. In both Calabria (and more generally the south) and the Veneto, areas where dialect use is much higher than in the northwest and center, "the middle class used dialects only with family, close friends, and “social inferiors,” while regional Italian was used in nearly all other contexts. By contrast, the working class used dialects in nearly all contexts (Trumper 1989: 45).

This rings very true to me, and may be part of the reason why returning members of the diaspora don't always get the welcome they feel they deserve from the Italians of even their own regions, apart, of course, from their own extended families. Running around addressing modern middle class people, or people with pretensions to being in the middle class, in arcane versions of the local dialect is considered impolite. The "locals" don't make enough allowances, in my opinion, for the fact that these people were taught "Italian" by emigrants from the earlier parts of the 20th century who had very little if any education, and so would have been unlikely to ever have been taught "standard" Italian. It's through such misunderstandings that offense can be given. The same applies to the use of the "tu" familiar and "lei" formal when addressing people. Foreigners often have difficulty memorizing both forms and go around tu tuing everyone, which is not appropriate. Or, even if they know both forms, they're not aware of the social niceties involved in knowing when and with whom to use one or the other.
"lei" forms

I also found this set of rules proposed by one of the participants very accurate for those bilingual speakers I've known, and it's quite charming and funny as well.


View attachment 6462

 
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@Auld Reekie,
Here are some relatively up to date statistics on dialect use in Italy...it's in Italian, but the listing of the percentages should be easy to understand.
http://www3.istat.it/salastampa/comunicati/non_calendario/20020312_00/testointegrale.pdf

The data is broken out by age, sex, region, province, education level, and then in many instances by home, vs. friend vs outside use situations.

I found this table to be very interesting in light of our conversations, as it shows the levels for dialect versus standard Italian use in the home by education level.
View attachment 6463
You can see here that this older man is aware of the importance of speaking only in standard Italian to his grandchildren until they are teen-agers so that they can learn the language of upward mobility.
 
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I thought I posted replies to individual people on book recommendations but I guess my coffee hasn't reached my brain yet. On topics of books, what book best describes Italy, it's people, soul, attitude etc.? I like Luigi Barzini The Italian's.

It's entertaining, but unduly romanticized and exaggerated, in my opinion. It at least has the benefit of being written by an actual Italian, however. The garbage written by foreigners presuming to "explain" us or our history is...well, garbage, and insulting to boot. I am a passionate lover of books, but The Dark Heart of Italy, written by someone who had been taken into the hearts and homes of Italians, something not easily done by a foreigner, so enraged me that I hurled it across the room more than once. I actually threw it away when I was finished, which I normally never do with books. The idiot was actually surprised that none of his Italian friends speak to him any longer and that he has become persona non grata.

It couldn't be otherwise, I suppose. A foreign culture is bound to be impenetrable if you haven't grown up in it. If you want a good laugh, read some articles written by European "American studies" professors about Americans. You won't recognize yourself!
 
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