Black Irish come from R1b Iranians?

[Aberdeen]

Sardinians have very low R1b frequencies and that R1b arrived recently. He Sardinians are very representative of old European populations, having 40-45% I2a2. The basques are 90% R1b of the same variety found today across much of westernmost Europe. What is the link exactly you are trying to make knovas?

Please define "quite recently" and provide proof. Thank you.

 

[adamo]

I-M26 is the oldest element on the island is what I meant to say, G-P15 was Neolithic; obviously R1b never really impacted Sardinia as it's R1b levels are slightly lower than those found in southern Italy, comparable to the frequencies in Greece for example (1.5-2 out of every 10 men.) who knows, these men may even represent much later colonizers to the area, R-S28 represents about 10% of Sardinian lineages. Also I've read recently that the ancient language spoken on Sardinia is somewhat similar to Basque and they are postulating a pre-indo-European I-M26 origin for the basque language...I find it odd because basque don't really have any I-M26 either way. There must be some group on Iberia though that represents the pre-indo-European I-M26 men found at 20% in the central Castille region of Spain.

 

[adamo]

"Sardinia was first colonized in a stable manner during the Upper Paleolithic and the Mesolithic by people from the Iberian peninsula and the Italian peninsula. During the Neolithic period, people from Italy, Spain and the Aegean area settled in Sardinia. In the Eneolithic-Early Bronze age the "Beaker folk" from the Franco-Iberian area and from Central Europe settled on the island, bringing new metallurgical techniques and ceramic styles and probably some kind of Indo-European speech."

 

[adamo]

"The Nuragic civilization arose during the Middle Bronze Age. At that time the island was divided into three or more major ethnic groups, the most important being the Ilienses, the Balares and the Corsi. Nuragic Sardinians have been connected by some scholars to the Shardana, a tribe of the Sea Peoples, which appear several times in ancient Egyptian records, but this hypothesis has been discredited by most historians." That's a good chronology of sardinian DNA to me. The very oldest Sardinians belonged to I-M26. These I2a1 men where continental survivors of "old Europe", looking for a refugium and eventually migrating from Iberia onto Sardinia.

 

[adamo]

Personally, I've always believed the men of I, responsible for Gravettian culture, where widespread across Europe before being forced into refuges during the ice age. The men of I2a1 scattered westwards reaching Iberia and eventually migrating onto Sardinia with it's Mediterranean climate. The men of I2a2 may have headed from general Central Europe eastwards; towards the warmer Adriatic coast Bosnian refuge. The men of I1 also stayed on the Iberian peninsula; eventually migrating north to Scandinavia when things heated up with mtdna V and some H females. These men would have been a part of what I like to call "old Europe".

 

[Aberdeen]

I-M26 is the oldest element on the island is what I meant to say, G-P15 was Neolithic; obviously R1b never really impacted Sardinia as it's R1b levels are slightly lower than those found in southern Italy, comparable to the frequencies in Greece for example (1.5-2 out of every 10 men.) who knows, these men may even represent much later colonizers to the area, R-S28 represents about 10% of Sardinian lineages. Also I've read recently that the ancient language spoken on Sardinia is somewhat similar to Basque and they are postulating a pre-indo-European I-M26 origin for the basque language...I find it odd because basque don't really have any I-M26 either way. There must be some group on Iberia though that represents the pre-indo-European I-M26 men found at 20% in the central Castille region of Spain.

If this post is in fact in response to my request that you provide proof of your claim that the R1b on Sardinia is recent, the fact that R1b is the second most common haplotype on Sardinia (not infrequent as you said before) does not prove that it's recent. The fact that I2 is more common than R1b does not, in itself, prove that I2 got there first (although I believe it did, for other reasons). Would you argue that the scarcity of haplotype T "proves" that it's more recent - I don't think so. If you can present some coherent argument about the age of subclades or whatever to prove which haplotypes have been in Sardinia the longest, I'll read that, although I think some of this science is still in its development stage, so cannot be taken as gospel. However, putting comments within quotation marks without attributing the source of your quotes is poor form. People will take a quotation seriously if it's from a scientific or historical paper or journal but will be much more skeptical of quotes from Wikipedia, since the publication standards are different.

 

[adamo]

I never said the frequency made it oldest, I said I2a1 is the oldest element on Sardinia ; it arrived during "old Europe" when I and it's subclades dominated europe, pre-indo-European. As for indo-european R1b, it arrived during the Bronze Age to Sardinia.

 

[adamo]

Now stop asking stupid questions that you know yourself the answer which arrived first.

 

[Aberdeen]

I never said the frequency made it oldest, I said I2a1 is the oldest element on Sardinia ; it arrived during "old Europe" when I and it's subclades dominated europe, pre-indo-European. As for indo-european R1b, it arrived during the Bronze Age to Sardinia.

Haplogroups don't speak languages - how do you know that Sardinian R1b is associated with the Indo-Europeans? Are you arguing that a group of pastoralists from the grasslands of southern Russia sailed from there to Sardinia? Since R1b may have originated in Anatolia, perhaps it reached Sardinia because sailors brought it from the coast of what is now Turkey to Italy and then to Sardinia. Do you have proof that a particular haplotype is only associated with one linguistic group? That certainly doesn't seem to be the case today. And how do you know that R1b arrived in Sardinia in the Bronze Age? You may have opinions on certain things, but what are your reasons for those opinions? That's what I want to hear - unless you tell me the reasons for your opinions, I can't decide whether or not I agree with you. And if you don't attribute the sources of your quotes, I can't decide whether or not I should take them seriously. Unless you can support your assertions, I'm done with this conversation because you seem to simply make statements you can't substantiate.

 

[adamo]

No, how about having entered Sardinia more recently from adjoining countrie's with high R1b frequencies like France or Spain? "Haplogroups don't speak languages"; yeah, I know, but R1 and it's derivatives in Europe are highly linked to indo-Europeans and the customs that came with them, including indo-European language. And how do I know that R1b arrived later in Sardinia than I2a1? Because it would have arrived at a similar period that R1b arrived in Corsica, predominantly via indo-Europeans, long after the old Europe I2a1 men had moved to Sardinia. I-M26 represents the first archaic colonizers of Sardinia, having arrived there some 10,000 years ago, it is fact. Stop asking me for studies/sources as I do not have them at hand, I just speak what I know to be fact through learning, the answers are in my head.

 

[adamo]

Did they sail from the plains of Russia to Sardinia you ask.....no they didn't, but is already explained that above Lol.

 

[matbir]

And how do I know that R1b arrived later in Sardinia than I2a1? Because it would have arrived at a similar period that R1b arrived in Corsica, predominantly via indo-Europeans, long after the old Europe I2a1 men had moved to Sardinia. I-M26 represents the first archaic colonizers of Sardinia, having arrived there some 10,000 years ago, it is fact. Stop asking me for studies/sources as I do not have them at hand, I just speak what I know to be fact through learning, the answers are in my head.

Facts seem to support that I2a1 entered Sardinia after R1b did it. Try to read this thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28934-Sardinian-Y-DNA-Phylogeny-per-Francalacci-et-al-2013

 

[adamo]

I have many sources that directly contradict that.

 

[Aberdeen]

I have many sources that directly contradict that.

Perhaps you could name some of those many sources? Trying to debate a topic with you is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

When I read "Paleosardo: The Linguistic Roots of Neolithic Sardinian" by Eduardo Blasco Ferrer, it made me question whether R1b is always associated with IE languages, although I suppose the Romans could have brought R1b to Sardinia in sufficient quantity to explain why it's the second largest haplogroup there, since it's still less than 20%. I doubt if R1b arrived in Sardinia in any quantity during the Bronze Age, since Sardinians seem to have spoken a non-IE language or languages until after the Romans conquered them, and that fact has left its mark on the Sardinian language.

 

[adamo]

Wikipedia for starters: "Furthermore, the I haplogroup of the indigenous Sardinians is of the I2a1 subtype (I-M26), which is almost unique to the island, though it takes origin in the Pyrenees region. The I2a1 haplogroup also has a low distribution around the Pyrenees, the Basque Country, Castile, the department of Béarn and Brittany in France, England, Sweden and Corsica. I-M26 may have evolved in southern France. It could have been introduced to Sardinia around 9,000 years ago and been preserved by isolation and drift.[44] The second-most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among the Sardinian male population is the haplogroup R1b (22% of the total population) mainly present in the northern part of the island. Sardinia also has a relatively high distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup G (11%),[45] which is also found mainly in the Caucasus, the Sardinian subtype of the Haplogroup G is closer to that one still present today in the Alps region, in particular the Tyrol area. Ötzi the Iceman, the mummy of a man who lived about 3,300 BC, found on the Alps in 1991 was discovered recently to be closely related genetically to modern Sardinians."

 

[adamo]

I2a1 originated near the Pyrenees on the northern Spanish border; not too far from where the basques would have been.

 

[adamo]

According to some studies, along with the Basques, Sardinians represent an example of a pre-Indo-European population surviving in Europe from the Paleolithic period.[37][38] The lineage of most Sardinians today goes back approximately 20,000 years, to the island's original settler population.[39][40]

 

[adamo]

Haplotypes eu7, with the mutation M170, derived by M89, that arrived via the Middle East 20,000-25,000 years ago, associated with gravettian culture, is very frequent in the central part of Eastern Europe, but it is present also among Basques and Sardinians. Sardinians successfully accumulated a mutatation (M26) that differentiates haplotypes eu8 with frequencies of 35%.

Other study: according to the authors, the high frequency of I2a1 in the archaic area of Sardinia Is explained by its presence in the first colonizers who arrived 10,000 years ago."

 

[Aberdeen]

Adamo, you should be embarrassed to quote Wikipedia as a source. And I wasn't talking about I2, I was talking about R1b. I think it's very unlikely that R1b arrived in Sardinia as part of an IE bronze age invasion for linguistic reasons. IMO, either R1b was brought to Sardinia in the neolithic or the early bronze age by people who weren't IE speakers or it arrived later with the Romans. I don't know which possibility is more likely, but I suspect it could have been a bit of both. How do you reconcile your comments about R1b being bronze age with your comments or quotations from dubious sources stating that "According to some studies, along with the Basques, Sardinians represent an example of a pre-Indo-European population surviving in Europe from the Paleolithic period. The lineage of most Sardinians today goes back approximately 20,000 years, to the island's original settler population." I personally think the haplotypes of people in Sardinia suggest that they have a lot of neolithic ancestry, since they have a fair bit of G, J2 and E1b1b. I don't know where the I2 came from - it could be quite old or it could be more recent. Of course I2 is old in Europe, but that doesn't automatically mean that it's old in Sardinia.

 

[adamo]

12.5% J total, 10-15% G and 10% E3b; you call that high? Not really. Half the R1b in Sardinia is R-S28