R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[adamo]

There is a very high probability that it did

 

[adamo]

No: you were saying its common lineage of spaniards, Germans and French men on national levels dude. What is important is to see where L-21's highest age and diversity are obviously. Right now there's a good chance that it originated within Europe somewhere near england; M-222's origins ON Ireland HAVE been confirmed. I also suspect L-21 of having originated nearby probably on England.

 

[American Idiot]

There is a very high probability that it did

according to who? besides you? what actual source has ever made such a claim ?

 

[American Idiot]

No: you were saying its common lineage of spaniards, Germans and French men on national levels dude.

again thank you for misreading my post . I clearly said it was found in LOW FREQUENCY in those areas, meaning it's not common, just not completely unheard of either...........dude
and I explained my thought as to why it's found in lower frequency in most of western Europe too.


still waiting your theory on how R1b-L21 went from the Isles and spread throughout Western Europe? if it originated in the Isles.
guess you didnt think that far ahead in your theory?

 

[adamo]

It didn't spread throughout Western Europe, is my point; just the British isles. You have to understand that it was still R-P312* during the LGM in the franco-Cantabrian refuge.

 

[American Idiot]

It didn't spread throughout Western Europe, is my point; just the British isles. You have to understand that it was still R-P312* during the LGM in the franco-Cantabrian refuge.

OMG, you should SERIOUSLY stop going by such outdated and incorrect info. No wonder you are so wrong about R1b-L21!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


just to humor you though......if it didnt spread throughout western europe then why is it found all throughout western europe?

because the same sub-clades dont usually just pop-up independently at various locations? they usually have ONE main general source and if found in other areas, it's usually from migration in one form or another.

 

[adamo]

It is t found "all over" west Europe, only in considerable frequencies on the British isles.

 

[American Idiot]

It is t found "all over" west Europe, only in considerable frequencies on the British isles.

yeah actually it IS found throughout western europe at lower frequencies as I obviosuly already stated. So my question to you.....how did it get to other areas of western europe if it came from England? and there was no major pre-historical migration from the Isles throughout France, Germany, or Iberia?
I know its highest frequency is in the Isles but Britain does not have a monopoly on R1b-L21.

maybe you should go back to reading outdated books by Bryan Sykes (LOL!)

 

[adamo]

5-10% isn't what I call significant presence; it probably originated on the British isles; that explains it's low spread virtually everywhere else; same for M-222.

 

[American Idiot]

it probably originated on the British isles; that explains it's low spread virtually everywhere else; same for M-222.

exactly what explains it's low spread everywhere else? Just the fact it supposedly came from the British Isles doesnt actually EXPLAIN anything?

So,how did it go from Britain to all the other areas of western europe?



http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

here's some help

 

[adamo]

It didn't and that's why all areas of continental Europe excluding France's Brittany province have equally low levels (5-10% at max). If it had originated and stayed on continental Europe; it would more frequent there today. But it just isn't.

 

[adamo]

If you don't see a link between high R-L21 frequencies all across the British isles (high in Ireland and the lowest in England) and the fact that the only region of continental Europe with significant L21 frequencies is a portion of France called "Brittany" then I feel bad for your mother the day you were born; no, it's not just cause of the name; it's because of what I know of the histories of the region.

 

[American Idiot]

If it had originated and stayed on continental Europe; it would more frequent there today.

not when all those other areas of Europe have a long history of being overrun and conquered by various other groups at many various times. As well as a much longer history of assimilation.

As I said earlier, Ireland was never overrun by any major conquering force historically so it remained isolated. As for Britain it was not truly overrun by the Romans until all other areas of western Europe, like Gaul, Iberia, had been fully romanized and assimilated. Britain was never fully romanized to the extent Gaul was. And since R1b-L21 is found in England at moderate to high levels, obviously the Saxons didnt commit genocide against the native Britons either.

as for R1b-L21 being found in western Europe, just because a population was once in a place in more larger numbers doesnt mean it stays that way forever.

There are virutally no Native AMericans left in the part of the U.S. I live in although at one time it was overrun with them.

population movements, wars, and various other factors change the demographic make up of an area if they go on for a long time and on a large scale.

Although the Isles experienced those things like the rest of western europe they didnt experience them on the same scale or for as long a time as other areas of western europe.

That makes sense as to why R1b-L21 is still found in the Isles at higher frequency today than anywhere else, especially those parts of the Isles with little outside intrusion
historically.


but again, you still have no explanation as to why R1b-L21 is found in other areas of Europe besides Britain. Yeah, its found at lower frequency but, again, how did it get there at all?

If it originated from England, (which it didn't), then how did it reach other areas of western europe? The frequency maybe low but the spread is wide in other parts of western europe, so what is the reason for that since there was no major historical migration from ancient Britain to various other areas of western europe?

 

[American Idiot]

If you don't see a link between high R-L21 frequencies all across the British isles (high in Ireland and the lowest in England) and the fact that the only region of continental Europe with significant L21 frequencies is a portion of France called "Brittany" then I feel bad for your mother the day you were born; no, it's not just cause of the name; it's because of what I know of the histories of the region.

I feel bad for you if you still believe grossly outdated and incorrect info based on Bryan Sykes and other idiots.

you still havent explained as to why R1b-L21 is found in other parts of western europe besides just Britain and NW France.

you're the one with the stupid theory it originated in England,......so back it up! how did it get to other areas of western europe if it originated in england?

that link shows an explanation to my theory and my post does too.....what is yours?
I do see a link as to why its so high in the Isles and Brittany. In fact I have explained it twice as to why R1b-L21 is high in those areas and lower elsewhere. Do you even read the posts?

I KNOW why its found so high in the Isles and NW France but you still have not told your thoughts as to why it's found elsewhere. If it originated in England, then who spread it to Iberia, Germany, and other parts of France besides Brittany?

 

[American Idiot]

it's because of what I know of the histories of the region.

but you obviously dont know jack about the early history of the rest of western europe and I feel bad for you since you live there!


you have not given any explanation as to how R1b-L21 (supposedly) originated in England then was carried into Iberia, France-not just in Brittany, Germany, Italy, etc.... you cant just dismiss it's presence in other areas of western europe simply because its found in lower frequency. If it originated from England, as you mistakenly claim, then how did it spread to other areas of Europe?

 

[adamo]

The romanization of gaul explains NOTHING about France's modern genetic make-up you baffoon; same for England; England received migrations from Germanics that Ireland didn't which due to higher I1 and R-S21 levels explains why L21 is found at a lower frequency. So you are telling me that L21 was more widespread across continental Europe in ancient times? And they were all killed off or replaced by other R1b lineages? Why do I have trouble believing that.

 

[adamo]

R1b P312* lineages have been in France since long before your little "romanization" same as virtually the rest of the entire French haplogroups. You keep mentioning this "wide spread" of R-L21 across continental Europe as if it's even frequent anywhere other than the British isles, but it isn't. This has nothing to do with age diversity and point of origin of course; It could have originated in western France for all we know.

 

[American Idiot]

The romanization of gaul explains NOTHING about France's modern genetic make-up you baffoon;.

so you are saying that no population in modern France has any major genetic similarity to Italians and other southern Europeans?......

 

[adamo]

The R-S28 DESCENDED from south-central Germany and the Marne region of France (la tene core areas) TOWARDS Switzerland and eventually north italy. The Italians DID NOT during romanization bring the R-S28 to France. Nor any other haplogroups for that matter; maybe around less than 5%; same for England.

 

[adamo]

Note south-central Germany is a Halstatt area not la tene; la tene culture succeeded and developed out f Halstatt culture. The romanization of England and France DID NOt change these region's ancient genetic structures (although there may today be a few more E-V13 or hg T men walking around in England but trust me this genetic impact was extremely minimal).