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Veneti

@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?
 
zanipolo said:
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?
Click to expand...

@ zanipolo

The Raeti people included:
- Euganei from the Verona area
- Stoeni from the Valli Giudicarie
- Camuni from the Val Camonica

Their settlements correspond with Raetian insciptions from the early 6th century BC. found across the Austrian Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige and western Lombardy area (early 6th cent.BC). The most important sources on the Raeti such as Pliny the Elder and Livy unanimously agree that they were of Etruscan origins who had taken shelter in the mountains with the arrival of the Celts.

I still think you are a revisionist ...:smile:
 
zanipolo said:
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?
Click to expand...

Yes i wrong, i confuse "Veneti" with "Venedi". But i want tell to you that de actualy Friulan peoples come from Illiric population with a good percentage of romans settlers and a little percentage of germans people; it was a research conduct was discovered by Mario Cappieri, geneticist and historian of the Anthropological Society of Paris. There is he's book on the google, if i find the link i will send to you.
 
The various veneti tribes are descendants of Egyptian traders.

Before the Old Kingdom Egypt had established trade routes to supply it with important commodities like: tin, amber, cedar, etc. The priests of Osiris were responsible for maintaining the trade routes and the trading outputs. This they did for thousands of years. Veneti comes from Wenet. Wenet comes from Wennefer which is another name for Osiris.
 
What you say is only a "rosetta stone" fable and dealt only with the veneti from Brittany , as it they migrated from Michael's mound near penanze England and went to brittany to form the Veneti. Byronic celt is what they spoke , if I recall correctly.

Although the adriatic veneti have 2 columns in the piazzetta, one has the winged lion of Saint Mark and the other has Saint Theodore standing on a crocidile.
The crocidile represent Egypt. it symbolically means, the power of the veneti over the Pharohs of Egypt.

make of it what you want - I doubt it
 
Revionist !?

The old saying is
History is written only by the winners and what is written is only 50% true
 
Etrusco-romano said:
Yes i wrong, i confuse "Veneti" with "Venedi". But i want tell to you that de actualy Friulan peoples come from Illiric population with a good percentage of romans settlers and a little percentage of germans people; it was a research conduct was discovered by Mario Cappieri, geneticist and historian of the Anthropological Society of Paris. There is he's book on the google, if i find the link i will send to you.
Click to expand...

Is this the article
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1977_num_4_3_1877

All I know is that the friuli area from the river livenza to the eastern alps a unknown tribe, the alps to the adriatic was the raeti people. about 550 BC the carni came form the lower alps and controlled the friuli area. They then expanded into western slovenis to be next to the Taurisci/norici.

If what you say is true and the friuli are illyrian, then what part did they Venetic language play since Friuli language has a gallic/raetian foundation
 
HI !
just a detail in this thread:
Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it - but their navy was destroyed and so a lot of their nobility, maybe. someones think they was a mix of different Celts and Mesolithic and megalithic people (good sailors). West Armoric was little influenced and little colonized by the neolithic people, danubian or cardial - the present day DNA of the population seams confirm this very light weight of Near-Eastern HG's (for the Y).
 
Sclaveni Venedi Antes
your map
This map is troubling:
the South area are the Carpathians, where we find today a lot of Y-I2a2 L423 and a lot of 'dinaric' phenotypes in the population. We can find also some Y-I2b - The area as a whole contains a significant number of Y-I2a2 and it seam to my these 2 Y-HG's played a big role in the development of metallurgy in Europe, after have been at the crossroads of Agriculture between Southeastern Europe and Ukraina (see Cucuteni-Triploje cultures). Like if the R1a steppes tribes have been 'educated' by this peoples well situated geographically - In Western Europe, Bohem (was the center of Unetice that had bell Beakers-Campaniform connexions) presents also I2a2 + I2b AS some cultural CHalco-Bronze places (I'm not sure of the precise dates) in Russia on the way to Siberia where we find a lot of Y-R1a with some I2a2 and AI2b too... to say: these people (not pure surely but with a big proportion of Y-I2a2 and others I2) played IN PERIODS NOT TO FAR ONE FROM THE OTHER a big roel too in Central-Western Indo-European Europe:
first I-E "teachers" or just an elite of traders-warriors-smithes"???
just to think about
have a good day
 
MOESAN said:
HI !
just a detail in this thread:
Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it - but their navy was destroyed and so a lot of their nobility, maybe. someones think they was a mix of different Celts and Mesolithic and megalithic people (good sailors). West Armoric was little influenced and little colonized by the neolithic people, danubian or cardial - the present day DNA of the population seams confirm this very light weight of Near-Eastern HG's (for the Y).
Click to expand...


I recently read that the phoenicians of southern spain sailed to Vannes ( brittany veneti) and sought their tin in exchange for goods. The veneti got the tin from Cornwall and Wales.

On another note some mix up the Veneli of caux normandy with these veneti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli
Some scholars say that these Unelli ( veneli) where originally from South west finland

In regards to the their HG, it known that the Veneti have L-21 and that the Veneti after caesar escaped to Scotland and became the Veniconnes.
The Veneli graves in Caux have some G2a3b1
 
MOESAN said:
Sclaveni Venedi Antes
your map
This map is troubling:
the South area are the Carpathians, where we find today a lot of Y-I2a2 L423 and a lot of 'dinaric' phenotypes in the population. We can find also some Y-I2b - The area as a whole contains a significant number of Y-I2a2 and it seam to my these 2 Y-HG's played a big role in the development of metallurgy in Europe, after have been at the crossroads of Agriculture between Southeastern Europe and Ukraina (see Cucuteni-Triploje cultures). Like if the R1a steppes tribes have been 'educated' by this peoples well situated geographically - In Western Europe, Bohem (was the center of Unetice that had bell Beakers-Campaniform connexions) presents also I2a2 + I2b AS some cultural CHalco-Bronze places (I'm not sure of the precise dates) in Russia on the way to Siberia where we find a lot of Y-R1a with some I2a2 and AI2b too... to say: these people (not pure surely but with a big proportion of Y-I2a2 and others I2) played IN PERIODS NOT TO FAR ONE FROM THE OTHER a big roel too in Central-Western Indo-European Europe:
first I-E "teachers" or just an elite of traders-warriors-smithes"???
just to think about
have a good day
Click to expand...


which map do you refer to.
The Sclaveni Venedi Antes and per an attached article in this forum, where in reality the Sclaveni Venethi Antes and these venethi did not exist as it was a title given to a Vandal "king" after the destruction of the Antes and Sclaveni.
From what I recently read, the venedi and vandal came across together from sweden and settled in Mecklenburg area ( first known date is 375BC, the venedi moved eastward over time to the vistula coast and where destroyed by the goths around 200AD.
basically Jordanes is one historian to avoid as he grapped all of cappidorous hard work and in 3 days printed his own type of history from pannonia
 
Sile said:
I recently read that the phoenicians of southern spain sailed to Vannes ( brittany veneti) and sought their tin in exchange for goods. The veneti got the tin from Cornwall and Wales.

On another note some mix up the Veneli of caux normandy with these veneti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli
Some scholars say that these Unelli ( veneli) where originally from South west finland

In regards to the their HG, it known that the Veneti have L-21 and that the Veneti after caesar escaped to Scotland and became the Veniconnes.
The Veneli graves in Caux have some G2a3b1
Click to expand...

some questions:
is it possible that Unelli could be Veneli with a so big phonetic evolution in a so short time in the same country or could have their name pronounced in a so different ways on the same time? [we] is not , and [ll] is not (was not) [l]
that Veneti (from Brittany) was Y-R-L21 is a very possible assumption but are we sure of that?

the whole Veneti escaped to Scotland:? hard to believe, there was no vacuum in their territory after the roman victory and numerous tribes don't move totally so easy -
for Normandy, I believe that the sample is not to big (as almost everytime in "jacobine" anti-population-genetics France - but some studies pointed out that during and after Celtic gaulish time, the Western part of Normandy showed an heavy weight of metrically "danubian-mediterranean" types and also others "mediterranean" types (somewhat different as some buryings (dolmens) of last Neolithic times showed metrical means closer to the ones of Cardial cultures of Languedoc) - I've an hypothesis: Cardial: more often Y-G2 + I2a1a - Danubian Neolithic: Y-G2 too but also E1b-V13 and J2b - to say that some G2 is not surprising in Normandy (North of France shows a lot today too) the 2 with some J2 - the Celts was a ruling elite there - the metrics of Normandy changed serioulsy only about the VIII° or IX° century according to the metric studies - East of the Seine river it seams it was different -
 
MOESAN said:
some questions:
is it possible that Unelli could be Veneli with a so big phonetic evolution in a so short time in the same country or could have their name pronounced in a so different ways on the same time? [we] is not , and [ll] is not (was not) [l]
that Veneti (from Brittany) was Y-R-L21 is a very possible assumption but are we sure of that?

the whole Veneti escaped to Scotland:? hard to believe, there was no vacuum in their territory after the roman victory and numerous tribes don't move totally so easy -
for Normandy, I believe that the sample is not to big (as almost everytime in "jacobine" anti-population-genetics France - but some studies pointed out that during and after Celtic gaulish time, the Western part of Normandy showed an heavy weight of metrically "danubian-mediterranean" types and also others "mediterranean" types (somewhat different as some buryings (dolmens) of last Neolithic times showed metrical means closer to the ones of Cardial cultures of Languedoc) - I've an hypothesis: Cardial: more often Y-G2 + I2a1a - Danubian Neolithic: Y-G2 too but also E1b-V13 and J2b - to say that some G2 is not surprising in Normandy (North of France shows a lot today too) the 2 with some J2 - the Celts was a ruling elite there - the metrics of Normandy changed serioulsy only about the VIII° or IX° century according to the metric studies - East of the Seine river it seams it was different -
Click to expand...


The Unelli are the Veneli as per the link. Story is that they arrived in Caux around 4000BC as the Uenne(e) a finnish people who spoke a cyro-britonic language and later changed to a brito-Belgic language.
U can become V , as in ancient times many languages replaced vowels or placed an extra letter in front of tribes names.
The Baltic Venedi as per tacticus notes, also spoke a britonic language similar to Welsh
These Venedi where letts ( finland originally) and noted as below....read some pages before and after
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-NEtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA450&dq=venedi+letts&hl=en&ei=MN_JTpaUGoiJmQWxp-UM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=venedi letts&f=false
These Venedi became the Prussians



on Venicones
the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the
possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which
would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people)
and Con (of the hounds). According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu).
At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen
, a branch of Romanised Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is
given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend
it."
"One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to
Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and
Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and
northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion."


Gwyn means white and so to does Ven
 
edit on post #113
Although Tacticus says the venedi spoke a britonic language like welsh, I found other modern writers saying they spoke Proto-Baltic which is different to proto-slavic and balto-slavic ( I do not know which order in time these languages appeared. Anyway below is the dialects and as previous post, the Venedi must have become the Prussians as Proto-baltic is nearly exactly the same as old-prussian.

Table 2. Baltic Dialects [1]

*Proto Baltic Old Prussian Old Lithuanian Sudovian (Yotvingian) Lithuanian Lettish Zaseciai Lithuanian
1 ainas ains wienas ainas víenas viêns íena
2 dvai dwai du dvai dù divi dù
3 trys tris, trys trys trîs trỹs trîs trĩs
4 keturi kettwirts keturi keturei keturì četri ķeturì
5 penke piēncts ? penkei penkì pìeci penkì
6 šeš uschts uschios ushai šešì seši šešì
7 septin *septints ? septinei septynì septii ŝeptìi
8 aštō *astōnts ? astônei aštuonì astuôni aštúoi
9 nevin[tis] nēwints ? nevinei devynì devii deíi
10 dešim[tis] dessimpts deschimtis desimtis dẽšimt desmit

[TD] dŝimt[/TD]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drużno


The diversity of basic terminology existed within "Proto"-Baltic" illustrates the antiquity of the West / East Baltic vocabulary inherited from the late Sredny Stog horizon (3500-3350 BCE) into the "Europeanized IE " Corded Ware Middle Dnieper culture horizon that influenced the evolution of divergent dialects by cultural contacts. The formative influence of poly-ethnic substratum populations on the various early Baltic-type dialects.
Certain innovations (i.e., declension) that occurred in the Central Eastern dialects are not reflected in the Peripheral Western Baltic dialects (i.e., canonical set of 4 core declensional cases, re: neighboring Gothic) . Each area also had different mixtures of substratum populations involved in their ethnogenic formations, and later neighboring influences. The Peripheral West Baltic dialects exhibit an archaic declension which gives one a unique window into both Baltics , and the "Proto"-Indo-European dialects, and their evolution. The current spoken Central East Baltic dialects are more evolved, expressive, and elegant. Bi-lingual West / East Baltic speakers adopted East Baltic rather quickly.
"The traditional academic construct of a seven case declensional system for early Proto Indo-European
is as synthetic as it is theoretically convenient." ( Jeannette DeBusk Cox )​
The core four cases of West-Baltic (Prussian, Sudovian, & Galindian) declension exhibit archaic features uniting West Baltic with Germanic and Greek. Only nominative, genitive, dative and accusative forms have constant intercrossing functions in various Indo-European languages, while forms used for the instrumental or locative cases (traditionally declared to be "Common Indo-European"), have related functions: e.g. the IE *"-ois" may occur in the instrumental case in one language and in the locative case in other ones, or *"-ō" / (apophonically) "-ē " occurs as "-āt" in the Indo-Iranian ablative and as "-it" in the Hittite instrumental.
 
zanipolo said:
The Unelli are the Veneli as per the link. Story is that they arrived in Caux around 4000BC as the Uenne(e) a finnish people who spoke a cyro-britonic language and later changed to a brito-Belgic language.
U can become V , as in ancient times many languages replaced vowels or placed an extra letter in front of tribes names.
The Baltic Venedi as per tacticus notes, also spoke a britonic language similar to Welsh
These Venedi where letts ( finland originally) and noted as below....read some pages before and after
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-NEtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA450&dq=venedi+letts&hl=en&ei=MN_JTpaUGoiJmQWxp-UM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=venedi letts&f=false
These Venedi became the Prussians



on Venicones
the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the
possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which
would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people)
and Con (of the hounds). According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu).
At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen
, a branch of Romanised Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is
given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend
it."
"One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to
Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and
Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and
northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion."


Gwyn means white and so to does Ven
Click to expand...


1- I know that 'v'+vowell was phonetic /w/ in a lot of previous formes of languages, that 'w' could go to 'u' or 'o': I was just wondering if the 2 names: Veneli and Unelli was of the same time - (but it's true the pronounciation can change with the reporting done by other peoples (as Greeks that lost their old I-E 'w-' for 'o-')
2- What I heard in serious works was that Venedi-Wendi was speaking an old form of Baltic language and not a slavic or celtoc one - the ancient historians of Antiquity made a lot of mistakes when descriving barbarian peoples an languages - Some old scholars thought Veneti of Brittany, of Italy and Poland had their names formed on an old common I-E root and that this old connexion didn't prove a recent filiation between them -
for veneti-Wendi they suppose sometimes a connection with Illyrian people as for od Lusacians, even if the proofs here was very very tiny (for Lusacians Urnfields I prefer an Ombrian-Osco-Italic influence but who knows?...)
3- I have no comfidence in the "forged common origins" of peoples based only on a syllabe shared by them in their names: old roots of I-E languages was very close one together at the beginning and it' svery too easy to make good bargain myths -
4- for now I don' believe in a presence of armorican Veneti in Britain after the Roman war (fly): if they had colonies there, these ones was older, before Rome incursions in the celtic lands - (I red they have some in Ireland)
5- "white" was 'vindo' in previous celtic before come to 'gwyn(n)', 'gwenn', 'fionn' -
and Gwynedd CAN NOT be explained by Venet- , it would be 'Gwyned' - and think 'gwyn-n' (/nn/ << /nd/)
6- OK for 'con-' withthe meaning of 'Hound', 'dog'
 
MOESAN said:
1- I know that 'v'+vowell was phonetic /w/ in a lot of previous formes of languages, that 'w' could go to 'u' or 'o': I was just wondering if the 2 names: Veneli and Unelli was of the same time - (but it's true the pronounciation can change with the reporting done by other peoples (as Greeks that lost their old I-E 'w-' for 'o-')
2- What I heard in serious works was that Venedi-Wendi was speaking an old form of Baltic language and not a slavic or celtoc one - the ancient historians of Antiquity made a lot of mistakes when descriving barbarian peoples an languages - Some old scholars thought Veneti of Brittany, of Italy and Poland had their names formed on an old common I-E root and that this old connexion didn't prove a recent filiation between them -
for veneti-Wendi they suppose sometimes a connection with Illyrian people as for od Lusacians, even if the proofs here was very very tiny (for Lusacians Urnfields I prefer an Ombrian-Osco-Italic influence but who knows?...)
3- I have no comfidence in the "forged common origins" of peoples based only on a syllabe shared by them in their names: old roots of I-E languages was very close one together at the beginning and it' svery too easy to make good bargain myths -
4- for now I don' believe in a presence of armorican Veneti in Britain after the Roman war (fly): if they had colonies there, these ones was older, before Rome incursions in the celtic lands - (I red they have some in Ireland)
5- "white" was 'vindo' in previous celtic before come to 'gwyn(n)', 'gwenn', 'fionn' -
and Gwynedd CAN NOT be explained by Venet- , it would be 'Gwyned' - and think 'gwyn-n' (/nn/ << /nd/)
6- OK for 'con-' withthe meaning of 'Hound', 'dog'
Click to expand...

We basically agree.

My theory is that the Romans first saw the Adriatic Veneti a tribe from Illyrian Istria, who came from the sea and tookover the plains of the Veneto.
The Roman word for the Sea as its colour of blue-green is VENETUS
Latin verb 'venire' (to come).A connection with the Latin word
venetus, meaning 'sea-blue'.
They then named tribes who where near the sea that did not fit the local people in customs or languages Veneti/venedi, Like the balts of Venedi in old prussia, the armorica veneti of breton, who seem to be a welsh people.
 
zanipolo said:
We basically agree.

My theory is that the Romans first saw the Adriatic Veneti a tribe from Illyrian Istria, who came from the sea and tookover the plains of the Veneto.
The Roman word for the Sea as its colour of blue-green is VENETUS
Latin verb 'venire' (to come).A connection with the Latin word
venetus, meaning 'sea-blue'.
They then named tribes who where near the sea that did not fit the local people in customs or languages Veneti/venedi, Like the balts of Venedi in old prussia, the armorica veneti of breton, who seem to be a welsh people.
Click to expand...


SEA-BLUE
maybe correct,
or blue eyes or something blue for sure,
Κωνσταντινουπολις- Nova roma,
emperor Ιουστινιανος Iustinianus Augustus
Σταση του Νικα Nika riots
writer Προκοπιος Prokopius
πρασινοι & Βενετοι (prasinoi & Venetoi) Green and Blue
Veneto at least in Latin of Byzantines at 530 AD ment Blue
compare with Greek Κυανουν & γαληνο-γαλανο means was not from Greek part of Byzantine litterature, meaning it came from Romans,

remarkable is a name a girls name that exist in Pontic and minor Greeks, Bενετια Venetia, it means royal, comparing the legend of royal blue blood, then another connection of Blue exist to testify that,
 
As per page 86 in link below ( map ) , another theory is that the veneti where one of the 4 tribes of the Urheimat culture and where "born" in Thuringia pre-germanic times

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...PCA&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venet&f=false

I have no opinion on this and base my knowledge on the latest archeolgy finds in the veneto dating from 1050BC ( link below)

http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Talks
more details and pictures on another site which must be downloaded

http://pia-journal.co.uk/article/view/pia.342/54
 
The amber trade linked Lusatian Culture and Adriatic Veneti for about 800 years. A long time, enough to share some cultural aspects. They say that the basic haplogroup for Lusatian Culture is R1a1a7, but unfortunately this haplogroup is not present in Italy. Do you know other subclades that are common in Poland and North-East Italy for Lusatian time (1300-500 b.C.)?
 
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